THE NATIONAL GREAT DEMON DEBATE. (Is Deliverance Ministry Biblical?)

now thank you good evening everyone and welcome to the great demon debate we are super excited for tonight we know that the lord is going to move in a mighty way we are thankful that all of you showed up here tonight we're going to start the service off with a time of worship i'm going to go ahead and pray and then the band's going to start so if you want to you can go ahead and stand to your feet because we're gonna worship the lord in this house tonight father we come to you in the name that is above every name the name of the lord jesus and father we thank you for this opportunity tonight to come and gather lord and to learn from your word father you said that your word will not return void so father tonight will you use your word tonight lord to drop scales from the eyes of people all over the place father because lord we know that there is power in the name of jesus that he still sets captives free and lord we thank you for that truth lord you said in your word that what we loose on earth is loosed in heaven and what we bind on earth is bound in heaven in the name of jesus father i bind any dark assignment that has been sent against this service tonight lord would your name be lifted on high would you be exalted above the nations tonight father lord and would you lose army angels to this tent tonight lord lord place what angels all around us encamped all about this tent lord that the glory of god would manifest in this place before our very eyes and lord we give you all honor in all glory because father you are the one that is worthy and lord we thank you lord i thank you for this opportunity tonight father lord what a sweet place it is to be right now in this time when there are people everywhere that are hungry for the truth of your word father tonight would you use this platform for the truth of your word to go forth that revival would flood the streets father that captives would be set free but lord more than anything that the name of jesus the name of jesus reaches households all over the world tonight and father we thank you for what you're gonna do in jesus name amen ((music playing)) who came to worship tonight let's lift up the name of jesus ((music playing)) ((music playing)) who could carry that kind of way it was ((music playing)) all my failures i tried too high ((music playing)) ((music playing)) glorious day ((music playing)) into your glorious days ((music playing)) is jesus went away ((music playing)) is ((music playing)) ((music playing)) into your glorious days ((music playing)) ((music playing)) now you ((music playing)) is ((music playing)) is ((music playing)) ((music playing)) hey ((music playing)) he can turn is into garden we need some of that today ((music playing)) they couldn't fill me ((music playing)) you came along and put me back together ((music playing)) now every desire is now satisfied ((music playing)) oh there's nothing better than you oh there's nothing ((music playing)) ((applause)) ((music playing)) is true ((music playing)) ((music playing)) is ((music playing)) ((music playing)) ((applause)) ((music playing)) ((music playing)) is ((applause)) ((music playing)) ((music playing)) ((music playing)) ((music playing)) you're the only one ((music playing)) foreign ((music playing)) is ((music playing)) ((music playing)) is ((music playing)) nothing ((music playing)) ((applause)) is nothing ((music playing)) ((music playing)) me ((applause)) ((music playing)) is ((music playing)) ((music playing)) okay ((music playing)) oh there's nothing i'm better than you oh ((music playing)) nothing's better than you oh ((music playing)) you know our nation is a time of mourning but nothing takes god by surprise and we had already picked this song so father right now we just pray that you would heal our land that we would not be a divided people but a united people behind the most important thing behind jesus the only one who can take this morning and turn it into dancing the only one who can take those graves ((music playing)) so when things like this happen ((music playing)) the only thing we can do is surrender and say god i don't know why but i know you ((music playing)) and i know that you're still good and i know ((music playing)) i'm better than you oh there's ((music playing)) there's enough nothing is better than you oh you are oh there's nothing i'm better ((music playing)) our morning into ((music playing)) dancing to ((music playing)) if dance turn off shame into your glory you're the only one who cares ((music playing)) you're the only ((music playing)) you took ((music playing)) is ((music playing)) ((music playing)) jesus ((music playing)) yes he can oh he's still good he's still good oh you're still good you're the only ((music playing)) come on let's give him some praise ((music playing)) my mind can ((music playing)) jesus it's you jesus sits here ((music playing)) ((music playing)) too good ((music playing)) to know you're too good ((music playing)) so is ((music playing)) is ((music playing)) ((applause)) is ((music playing)) you're the one ((music playing)) ((music playing)) is ((music playing)) ((applause)) ((music playing)) ((music playing)) i believe ((music playing)) yes i believe it ((music playing)) i've seen cancer disappear we've seen broken bodies here ((music playing)) ((music playing)) don't don't you tell me he can't do it and we've seen families reunited we've seen prodigals be turned don't you tell ((music playing)) don't you tell me he can do ((music playing)) ((applause)) don't don't you tell me ((music playing)) ((applause)) ((music playing)) we can do it is ((music playing)) ((music playing)) don't you ((music playing)) ((music playing)) you're so good ((music playing)) ((applause)) ((music playing)) foreign ((music playing)) ((music playing)) foreign ((music playing)) you're too good to not believe who i believe ((music playing)) ((music playing)) oh i ((music playing)) foreign ((music playing)) resurrection we've seen mental health restored don't you tell me he can't do it don't you tell me he can't do it and we've seen families reunited we've seen particles return don't you tell me he can't do it don't you tell me he can't do we see ((music playing)) don't ((music playing)) is ((music playing)) ((music playing)) ((music playing)) will you hear me ((music playing)) you're too good ((music playing)) oh my god is too good to not believe ((music playing)) ((music playing)) i believe i believe ((music playing)) even if i haven't seen everything he has to offer i still believe ((music playing)) miracles we'll see you're ((music playing)) you're too good to not believe would you heal our land father we cry out to you tonight we cry out to you father you're too good to not believe pour ourselves our worship out to you tonight father have your way father that your name would be glorified above all it's in your mighty name we pray it's by the power of the name of jesus christ and no other that we say amen amen come on church amen give the lord some praise in his house tonight ladies and gentlemen if you've been washed in the blood shout amen in this house the livestream will stay on for three minutes you don't really have time to go to the bathroom but uh you have time for more people coming in and most people are getting your seven anyhow because that's when it was officially supposed to start and so in about two minutes we'll turn things over completely to the moderator he'll take over and uh he'll introduce what we got going on he'll give us the ground rules and we will rock on so you can fellowship for a few moments they'll turn up a little bit of music we'll get the stage reset and we'll have the great demon debate thank you for being here god bless you we love you and we're going to get started in two minutes i'm just happy to be allowed in anywhere without a negative cova test so i thought that would work well here so so so uh first i want to just go over the format a little bit so you all have an idea what to expect so we're going to open the night with opening statements from each of our speakers so dwayne charles will start with 20 minutes and then pastor greg locke will give a 20-minute opening statement we'll then move to a period of rebuttal where dwayne charles will give a 10-minute rebuttal and then pastor greg locke will do a 10-minute rebuttal we'll then take a 10-minute break because that's an hour and you're going to need to stretch your legs and stand up and shake it out a little bit so we'll do a 10 minute break but we'll start promptly after 10 minutes so make sure you're ready for that when we come back we're going to do a period of cross-examination so we'll do two rounds of cross-examination where one speaker will be able to ask questions of the other and the other will answer and each speaker will get two five minute rounds of that and then we'll move into closing statements where pastor greg locke will give a 10-minute closing statement and then brother charles will give a 10-minute closing statement and then at that point we're going to move to the arm wrestling match so that wasn't approved of before actually something far less interesting we'll do a a q a period of 10 minutes where i'll be asking questions to each as we go back and forth so that's what the format's going to look like a little bit about the rules for tonight i'm going to be keeping time just to help us stay on schedule when the timer goes off i'm going to try to indicate to them when their time is up hopefully the tent will stay down and ((music playing)) when the timer goes off then the speakers can finish their thought and then we'll we'll move on to the next speaker during the cross-examination period it's the traditional rules the speaker and control of the time will ask questions only so they won't use that time to deliver any new arguments or they're going to ask questions of the other speaker and then the person receiving the questions will only be able to answer the question that's been asked without raising new arguments and going off on on his points so we'll do that and then i'd like to encourage each of you as much as you agree with your speaker to hold your applause the time it takes to wait for applause to die down just takes away from their time because it is a timed event so we'll have a time to applaud when i introduce them at the beginning and then at the end as well so that'd be good um so that's going to be the rules and so the question tonight is does the church today possess the power to drive out demons and taking the affirmative position will be pastor greg locke is uh ((applause)) ((music playing)) pastor locke is a pastor of global vision bible church here in mount julia tennessee and taking the negative position will be mr dwayne charles brother charles is founder of men of the word a ministry out of waksahachi texas so he's come he's come away how'd i do with the pronunciation that was good okay wax a hatchet that's not it okay let's pray and then we're going to get started our father in heaven you are the giver of every good and perfect gift you are the sustainer of all things the author and perfecter of our faith it's through your son that you've redeemed us by the blood of the cross you've called us out of the kingdom of darkness and into your marvelous light we thank you for the opportunity before us that we might be like the noble bereans who search the scriptures daily to see if these things were so god our speakers tonight to present their positions clearly that we may understand and all be edified through this engagement in jesus name amen all right let me get my seat here we're going to start with uh brother dwayne charles who has a 20-minute opening statement and that time will begin whenever you start first thing i would like to say as we got here last night to tennessee we had a beautiful drive up here my partner and i i love road tripping and so i took advantage to see a little bit of new scenery and it was an enjoyable drive when we got in we got the tragic news uh that my state suffered a tragedy as we were on our way up here in yuvaldi texas um so first i want to make sure that they are covered and bathed in prayer and understand as strong as texans are we're never this as strong as texans are we we we always say we're the biggest and baddest i i i'm not up here trying to say that i promise but it's just a reputation that a texan carries um and i don't care how big and how bad you are that's going to knock you to your knees man so um pray for texas pray for you baldi and uh pray for salvation for the shooter we are not to condemn anybody to hell we may hate what they do but we are not here to condemn anyone so pray for the shooter his family the victim's family and let's find a way to glorify god through this tragedy thank you for having me here tonight and my name is dwayne charles and i am from waxahachie texas proper proper so and i have a small social media ministry called men of the word i am honored and i am humbled to have such a task there is no there is so much going on here this afternoon and so much that you may not understand but i'll tell you where i'm coming from i'm a man that is tired of being lied to i'm tired of seeing scripture twisted into something that it is not i've never held an office in a church and i've never even preached a full sermon before i'm just a truck driver a high school dropout that was in the so-called special classes i'm not a good public speaker and so that is when you will see me use sermons and speeches and words from men much wiser than me in my early years as an adolescent i was in a traditional baptist church brought every sunday by my sweet sweet grandmother then later in my teenage years later in my teenage years i would be introduced to the united pentecostal church whereas the church would call themselves holy rolling apostolic pentecostals so when my opponent thought it was foolish of me not to attend a deliverance service he did not know i had already been indoctrinated and freed from such teaching pardon me this is my first time in this situation so ((applause)) ((music playing)) oh i'm not scared brother i'm just learning so tonight i will tell you things to make you that i will tell you things that will make you angry with me and i will tell you things that you will deny and you will say i have no right to tell you what i am telling you but before you come to any conclusion about what is being said here this evening you ask yourself one question are you receiving teaching that is given given to you with discernment are you simply in agreement how much time do you spend on your own studying the passage presented to you and when and if you study them on your own do you use scripture to justify your experience or do you use your experience to justify scriptures if what i tell you tonight is true that my opponent is the one with cause for fear and trembling because my opponent's problem is not with me then it will be with the word of god second second corinthians 11 1 15 as pastor just recently recited in one of his sermons as greg did i wish you would bear with me in a little foolishness do bear with me no he didn't repeat this one sorry uh do bear with me for i feel a divine jealousy for you since i betrothed you to one husband to present you as a pure virgin of christ but i am afraid that as the excuse me but i am afraid that as the separate serpent deceive eve by his coming your thoughts will be led astray for a sincere and pure devotion to christ for someone comes to comes and proclaims another jesus than the one we proclaimed or if we receive a different spirit than the one you received or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted you put up with a with it readily enough indeed i consider that i am not in the least inferior to these super apostles even if i am unskilled in speaking and i am not so in knowledge indeed in every way we have this plain to you in all things or did i commit a sin and humbling myself so that you might be exalted because i preached god's gospel to you free of charge i robbed other churches by accepting support from them in order to serve you and when i was with you and when i was in need i did not burden anyone for the brothers who came from macedonia supplied my name so i refrain and will refrain from burdening you in any way as the truth of christ is in me the boasting of mind will not be silenced in the regions of the chao and why because i do not love you god knows i do and what am i do what i'm doing i will continue to do in order to undermine the claim of those who would like to claim that in their boasted mission they work on the same terms as we do for such men are false apostles deceitful worksmans disguising themselves as apostles in christ and no wonder for even satan disguises himself as an angel of light so if so it is no surprise if the servants also disguise themselves servants of righteousness therein correspond to their deeds so only question that i really that really has to be decided here this evening is am i telling you the truth so let me pray a prayer that a man much wiser than me prayed and his name is paul washer father you know me and your sovereignty and i pray and i beg before the throne of god that you would be gracious to us that you would open hearts and minds lord we can't wait for them to open theirs they never will open their hearts and minds and cause them to see biblical truth be on them grant them repentance and grant them faith bring them into the kingdom of the lord for your own glory for the sake of your own great name do this thing lord it be so that no man will take credit for it and so that no man will lay his hand on the ark of god and if he did that you would strike him down dead lord o god move among us please because we have no other hope and these people have no other hope except that you move amen matthew 7 13 27 says and this is the passage i was believe i was you just went through i apologize for that enter through the narrow gate for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction and there are many who enter through it for the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to fire to leads to life and there are few who find it beware of the false prophets who come to you in sheep's clothing but generally are ravenous wolves you will know them by their fruits grapes are not gathered from the thorn bushes nor figs nor are from thistles are they so every good tree bears good fruit but every bad tree bears bad fruit a good tree cannot produce bad fruit nor can a bad tree produce good fruit every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire so then you will know them by their fruits not everyone who says to me lord lord will enter the kingdom of heaven but he who does the will of my father who is in heaven will enter many will say to me on that day lord lord did we not prophesy in your name and did we not cast out demons and in your name perform many miracles then i will declare to them i never knew you depart from me you practice you practice lawlessness therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and acts upon them may become compared to a wise man who builds his house on the rock and the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and slammed against the house and yet it did not fall for it had been founded upon the rock everyone who hears these words of mine and does not act on them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand the rain fell and the floods came and the winds blew and slammed against the house and it fell and it was a great fall tonight i stand here an imperfect man someone you've probably never heard of humbled by the task at hand i am a humble man who wears will still down stare down an unhumbled false teacher knowing that he has the verses down better than me knowing that he will be able to talk circles around me and i don't care because tonight i will battle with the only passions that gives our generation specific instructions on how to deal with spiritual warfare because this is a battle for truth and that is what spiritual warfare truly is finally be strong in the lord and the strength of his might put on the whole armor of god that you may be able to stand against the schemes of the devil for we do not wrestle against flesh and blood but against the rulers against the authorities and against the cosmic powers over the present darkness against the spiritual forces of evil the in the heavenly places therefore take up your whole armor of god that you may be able to withstand in the evil day and having done all to stand firm stand therefore having fastened the belt of truth and having put on the breastplate of righteousness and as shoes for your feet having put on the readiness given by the gospel of peace in all circumstances stances take up the shield of faith with which you can extinguish all the flaming darts of the evil one and take the helmet of salvation and the sword of the spirit which is the word of god praying at all times in the spirit with all prayer and supplication to the end keep alert with all perseverance making supplication for all the saints and also for me that words may be given to me opening my mouth boldly to proclaim the mystery of the gospel for which i am an ambassador in chains that i may declare boldly as i ought to speak of course we're speaking of ephesians 6 10 through 20. you see i want you to understand something tonight i do not deny the presence of demons in our lives the oppression they can have upon the church and the possession that they can have on people who are unrepented and live in the world what i do say is that after the canon of the new testament and the last apostle had died the apostolic office was closed however indwelling of the holy spirit that is the dwelling of the holy spirit that is given once we repent and believe is enough i believe god's word is enough hence the warning in revelation 22 and for my opponent to say that you need deliverance after salvation is to say that your salvation was not enough the cross isn't enough and that god's sovereignty isn't enough truth is the truth is is the veil was torn and jesus said it is finished those that are called to faith through repentance repentance have become the temple in which the holy spirit dwells because of the covering of the blood and the righteousness of the lamb and nothing unholy can indwell what is holy nor can it touch what is holy an emphasis on second corinthians 6 14-18 do not be unequally yoked with unbelievers by the way this is talking mostly about false teachers for what partnership has righteousness with lawlessness or what fellowship has light with darkness are what accord has christ with below or what portion does a believer share with an unbeliever what agreement has the temple of god with idols for we the temple of the living god as god said i will make my dwelling among them and i will mock among them and i will be their god and they shall be my people therefore go out there in the midst and be separate from them says the lord and touch no unclean thing then i will welcome you and i will be a father to you and you shall be sons and daughters to me says the lord almighty thank you ((applause)) pastor locke your time will start when you start speaking very little that he said that i actually disagree with uh as far as cessationism we'll get to that here in just a little bit but i want to say at the beginning other people doing it wrong does not nullify the fact that biblically it can be done accurately the gospel is preached wrong in many churches but that doesn't mean that we don't hold to the blood of christ and to the fact that jesus died was buried and rose again first corinthians 15 1-4 and so i'm not sure that it's much of an argument just because some pentecostals and some baptists and some others have done it incorrectly and there are false prophets that are doing it incorrectly there is no doubt it doesn't nullify the fact that we still have a responsibility to preach the entirety of not just the gospel but the results of the gospel luke 4 18 the spirit of the lord jesus said in the temple is upon me because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor he has sent me to heal the brokenhearted and to preach his words king james deliverance to the captives and recovering to the side of the blind to sit at liberty them that are bruised the prophetic fulfillment of that was out of the mouth of the apostle peter in acts 10 38 when he said god anointed jesus of nazareth with the holy ghost and with power in the book of acts i remind you church age who went about doing good and healing all that were oppressed of the devil for god was with him and the good that jesus did the bible says was healing those that had been oppressed of the devil so there's 243 times in the old the new testament the word deliverer or deliverance is used and so obviously every single time it's not the context of evil spirits but here's what you have to understand about the biblical progression of the ministry of jesus it is the number one thing jesus did outside of preaching the gospel there's never a time that jesus ever commissioned anyone or any group of people to preach the gospel without telling them that they had the ability to cast out devils i'll prove that to you from the bible but we have to answer this question first in the last 2000 years has the name of jesus and its power subsided has its authority gone away the obvious answer is and he would agree with this absolutely not there's still power in the name of the lord jesus christ philippians 2 5-11 it's a prophetic passage about something that's going to happen in the future every knee shall bow and every tongue shall confess in heaven and earth and under the earth that every tongue shall confess that jesus christ is lord to the glory of god the father so there's nobody in this room with half a brain or half a bible that even men on this platform that would say that there's no power in the name of jesus so why is it if it was powerful enough to defeat darkness then why is it no longer powerful enough to defeat darkness now and the obvious answer is it's still very powerful because you can scream in the name of buddha you can scream in the name of trump you can scream in the name of greg lock and nothing happens but if you can simply say in the name of the lord jesus christ guess what there's still power in that name and demons still tremble and flee at the name of jesus and james 2 simply says that the devils believe and tremble and when you get a demon under the influence of the power of the name of the lord jesus christ they certainly do tremble but i want to give you and i'm not going to read these because it would take a lot longer than 20 minutes i want to give you the references interestingly enough in just the ministry of jesus in matthew mark luke and john what we affectionately and theologically call the gospels and i want to remind you that the same thing happens today when you talk about for lack of better terminology deliverance ministry maybe that's not the best phraseology it used to be called exorcism but the catholic church hijacked that as they did the rest of a lot of things that they caused to be idolatrous and so now we call it deliverance but i will say this not only is it the number one thing jesus did it's the number one criticism that jesus had because here's what they said what is this new doctrine it was no new doctrine and so when you preach it today people say what is this new doctrine there's no new doctrine demons respond the same way to the name of jesus today as they did in the ministry of jesus and people respond to demons coming out the same way as they did in the ministry of jesus and so listen matthew 4 1-11 we're going to calculate all these up in just a moment matthew 4 23-24 matthew 7 he read it 21-23 matthew 8 16-17 these are all times jesus talked about demons confronted demons and cast out unclean foul and evil spirits matthew 8 28-34 matthew 9 32-35 matthew 10 1 he commissioned his disciples to go forth and to cast out demons as they preach the gospel matthew 10 5-8 matthew 12 22-23 matthew 12 43-45 matthew 15 21-28 matthew 17 14-21 matthew 28 18-20 the great commission mark 1 23-28 mark 1 32-34 mark 3 10-12 mark 3 14-15 mark 3 22-30 all of these context every verse i'm giving you right now deals with the exact same subject the expulsion of evil spirits mark 5 1-20 the maniac of gadara mark 6 6-7 mark 6 12-13 same chapter four verses apart two totally different counter encounters with jesus mark 7 25-30 mark 8 33 mark 9 17-29 mark 9 38-40 mark 16 9 mark 16 15-20 luke 4 1-13 luke 4 32-37 luke 4 38 and 39 luke 4 40 and 41 four times in one chapter different encounters luke 6 17-19 luke 7 21 luke 8 23 which by the way jesus was financed by four women in that context out of whom he had cast devils luke 9 49-50 luke 10 17-20 luke 11 14-26 luke 13 10-17 luke 13 31-32 john 7 20 john 8 39-52 john 10 19-21 john 12 31 and john 13 26-27 that's 236 verses that's longer than the entire book of first timothy from the apostle paul 236 verses in the ministry of jesus that proves a third of everything he did outside of preaching the gospel was casting out evil spirits as a matter of fact you will find maybe not even one time in the bible in which publicly jesus preached to groups of people in which demons were not coming out sometimes it was so proficient that the holy spirit on several occasions used the word many because he couldn't even calculate how many people were being delivered and it's interesting the things that we know about jesus all the things the big things about his ministry for example when they were astonished at his doctrine it was because of demon expulsion the unpardonable sin was about demonic expulsion fasting and praying was about demonic expulsion faith to move mountains was about demonic expulsion everything jesus did centered around the idea that there are two kingdoms there's a kingdom of darkness and there's a kingdom of light the kingdom of light exposes the kingdom of darkness there are two kingdoms that is an undeniable fact and there is nothing on the planet like exercising demons deliverance ministry if you will that proves the idea that the invisible kingdom is made visible and jesus still triumphs through his name and through the finished work as he said on the cross and demons still flee at the name of the lord jesus christ that's 200 verses on the number one thing that jesus did in his ministry but if that's not enough here's the biblical progression of deliverance did you know there was never a demon cast out until jesus came on the scene never john the baptist did not cast out demons there's never one time in the old testament that a demon came out but david played an instrument and the bible says that an evil spirit three times from the lord would depart from saul do you know what he ended up calling those songs that he would play in the book of psalms songs of deliverance songs of deliverance from what only one thing songs of deliverance from evil spirits and so in the old testament there was the idea of evil spirits but none were ever cast out until jesus showed up and when jesus showed up here's the progression he first faced the devil he bound the strong man in matthew chapter 4 verses 1 through 14 and after he brought the devil into a chokehold of submission he then went out and his fame spread abroad it says that three times and in every occasion what made jesus famous was the fact that he was preaching this new doctrine of exorcism but then when we move into the reality of the new testament itself here's what jesus does he realizes that he's going to raise some people up so in matthew 10 1 he gets 12 men that they may be with him that they may go forth preach and cast out devils then he has 70 and then he commissioned 70 people to go out there's even a time that somebody was not in the 12 or the 70 and they came to jesus and said this man over here is casting out devils should we rebuke him jesus said let him alone because he's either for us or he is against us and then from the 70 he said clearly in mark chapter 16 after the glory of the resurrection he said these signs shall follow them that believe not those that debate not those that have a phd not those that have been to bible college not those that are baptist pentecostal or anything else he said these signs shall follow them that believe and the number one sign the very first sign out of the gate is in my name they shall cast out devils and then guess what from there it moves to the book of acts and in the book of acts here's what happens in the local new testament church okay we're talking in the local church when it was started and founded after the day of pentecost after all of these things right chapter 5 chapter 8 chapter 10 chapter 13 chapter 16 chapter 19. the early church performed if you will deliverance ministry and here's the interesting thing about that three times it wasn't an apostle that did it it was it was a deacon in a church it was an elder energy it was not somebody that had some supernatural apostolic power we all have supernatural power because he said in my name those that believe shall cast out devils and so it happened six different times in the book of acts then you have to ask the question why is it that we believe and i know he believes this that we should go into all the world and preach the gospel we believe that right we should go into all the world and preach the gospel why do we believe that that sinners should be converted through the gospel there's only one gospel death burial and resurrection okay we believe that we believe that sinners once they get saved they should follow the lord in believer's baptism we believe that okay we both would agree on that there's no doubt about it neither one of us are denying the reality of the gospel but why is it that we only partially obey the commission we believe in preaching the gospel to every creature and baptizing and discipling the converts and yet in the same great commission he said the very first thing that you will do once you preach the gospel is in my name ye shall cast out devils so we have to ask the question why has the church been taught to partially obey the text why do we believe in mark 16 15 which we absolutely adamantly believe in but we don't believe in the rest of it it's in the same passage it's not greg letters it's in red letters and then we have to look at the the new testament chronology there really are new testament proofs for deliverance ministry there really is there's a lot of them in fact i'll give you a handful of them all right in first corinthians 12 and verse number 10 you have the gifts to the body okay you have the gifts to the body from the holy spirit the gifts of manifestation that the apostle paul talked about do you know what one of those gifts happened to be it's called the discerning of spirits why would god give some people the ability to discern spirits because it is a gift to the body of christ to be able to first john 4 1 try the spirits to see whether they be of god you see not every spirit is of god we know who the spirits of god are hebrews chapter one has he not sent forth his angels to be ministering spirits to the saints so we know there's angelic and then we know that there's false angelic as our brother said and we give him props for that the devil can be thrown into an angel of light and you better know as i said sunday when he got kicked out of heaven in revelation 12 isaiah 14 and ezekiel 28 he fell right in a pulpit because there are more devils in pulpits than anywhere else in the united states of america there is no doubt so of that we can absolutely agree but we have to try the spirits the bible says that so if we have to try them that means they're still alive they're still there and they're still coming against the church second corinthians 10 and 5. the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty through god to the pulling down of strongholds we've heard that verse our whole life here's my question who's doing the strongholding somebody is holding strong in your life something has a hold of you and we'll see that in a moment because there is a difference in the flesh and demonic affliction there's no doubt about that not everything is a spirit you understand that and we don't claim that everything is a spirit but then the bible goes on and talks about future events that involve demons events that have not yet taken place which would preclude us to understand that if it hasn't yet taken place then the demonic activity is still very much alive today one of which he quoted matthew chapter 7. many shall say to me in that day lord lord did we not prophesy thy name and in thy name cast out devils that'll tell you two things number one that it's still happening today because that's the reality of the judgment revelation 20 11-15 but it also tells us that the power is not in some charismatic personality the power is in the name of jesus and even a lost person can do it and that's why this very day on youtube there are crooks and lost people doing it for clicks and likes and shares and money and god said you're gonna bust hell wide open and they cast out devils why because the power is not in you the power is in the name of the lord jesus christ you understand that revelation 18 2 revelation 18 2 talks about babylon and in that day god is going to unleash every foul spirit and cage demon the bible says there's going to be a hundred million demon-possessed chinese soldiers that are going to cross the euphrates river during the middle of the tribulation period he talks about the armor of god i love the armor of god wrote a whole book about the armor of god everything he said is exactly right but you know what the armor of god is it is prescriptive not descriptive it is telling us if you do this you will not be deceived by the devil if you do this you can quench the fiery darts of the wicked so my question is what happens if you don't wear it you open yourself up to the successibility of demonic activity in your life not possession possession is an unfortunate word the king james translator should have never used it there is no word possession in the bible it is a greek word that means demonized right and so i do not believe that christians can be possessed i do believe that christians can be oppressed i do believe they can be afflicted and we're going to see in a few moments biblical reasons why i believe that but when it comes to the armor of god the question has to be arisen okay so if you're not using the word and you should if you're not praying if you don't have on the belt of truth then you are going to be given over to the wiles to the deception of the enemy and so i fully believe you ought to wear it there's no doubt but here's the reason we put it on because we wrestle not against flesh and blood so what do we wrestle against against principalities powers spiritual wickedness in high places there are three types of demonic entities in the bible there are those that are reserved in chains of judgment in the book of jude because they left their first estate there are those that are on the earth that are demonizing individuals and they get their orders from headquarters which are in the heavenlies the devil's called the prince of the power of the air when he left the third heaven and was kicked out he took the rank and file system of the military database that god used and all he did was steal god's stuff and start his own kingdom because the devil cannot create he can only imitate that's why in the new testament he's called an anti-christ he creates nothing you understand and so i believe in ephesians 6 but it says look if you don't do this this is what's going to happen and then let me say this can i remind you that the model prayer the middle thing jesus said was deliver us from evil okay it doesn't get much more evil than demonic demonization seven churches in asia okay those are churches that for the last two thousand years have been descriptive analogies of how the church is supposed to operate did you know four of the seven churches god said are fighting satan and one of them he said you fight against the jezebel spirit and you tolerate it in the new testament in the book of revelation seven churches and four of them fought satan purposely holy ghost said so and one of them fought the jezebel spirit and wasn't doing too well with it and then we wrestle not against flesh and blood as i said a moment ago so there has to be something that we do wrestle against and he tells us clearly that we wrestle against demonic activity what about this the greater works everybody wants to deny the greater works right but in john chapter number 14 verse 11 and 12 jesus said because i go to my father okay because i go to my father ye shall do greater works than i have done does that mean we're going to be greater than jesus no that's heretical what that means is in the context he very plainly says it i preached three entire expository sermons on it and it's simply this he said the father dwells in me i got news for you the father does not dwell in you the holy spirit dwells in you right the person of christ dwells in you in the person and work of the holy spirit he said because the father dwells in me i perform miracles but when i go to my father the peroclitos the holy ghost will come and because you've got the dwelling of the holy spirit greater work shall ye do than i have done and it failed on the day of pentecost and guess what the day of pentecost is still being carried out to this day because in joel 2 you have the prediction of pentecost in acts 2 you have the fulfillment of pentecost and the bible clearly says at the end of that passage that pentecost will not end until the great and notable day of the lord and during that day whosoever shall call upon the name of the lord shall be delivered that's what the bible says it's simply what the bible says there's no way around that there's no way to take that out of context james says and here's what deliverance ministry is to us okay catherine crick is a crook and all these people that are on youtube doing this nonsense i get it but here's what deliverance ministry is the bible says submit to god resist the devil and he will flee from you you know what we do in a mass deliverance we don't allow not so schizophrenic nonsense here's what we do we teach people submit to god repent resist the devil and what will he do he'll flee from you because this is what the bible says the bible says and he will flee from you now that's a lot right we we only have a short amount of time and so that's a lot to get in but i want to say this in my conclusionary remarks this last little minute and a half or so that i have not only did it go from jesus to the 12 to the 70 to the book of acts you do have to understand that church history is replete with what they called exorcism but we swapped it for the word deliverance again because of the hijacking of the catholic church it's replete with it people by the way like such as paul washer that he talked about and i like paul washer i think he's a great preacher paul washer would follow calvin paul washer would follow augustine greatly now i have a list i have dates i have all this there's quotations we don't have time for it but you can fact check me all right you can fact check me here's the deal here are the greats after the new testament conclusion that still believed exactly what i'm preaching right now but they just decided that they're going to call it something different they call it exorcism tertilian justin martyr theopolis of antioch or region athanasius hippolytus irenas augustine do you know the augustine before he died he wrote a book called repudiation and he repented of cessationism okay calvinist won't tell you that but he did aquinas venerable bead saint francis of assisi polycarp william tyndale john wycliffe gregory the great martin luther spurgeon moody finney whistling and whitfield all of them had something to say about the fact that there's power in the name of jesus in the church age to dispel demonic activity so at the end of the day there's either power in the name of jesus or there's not power in the name of jesus i'm through ((music playing)) ((applause)) brother charles you got 10 minutes of a rebuttal period starts when you start first thing i would like to say is address a couple of statements that you made first of all i believe it's incorrect that acts as part of the new church it is part of the historic documentation the epistles are clearly set for the rules and the standards that the modern day church is is how to act how to praise and how to conduct itself you said you have a formula of how to do it but the other guys do it wrong i would love to see that through the epistles and how you would describe that as well later on if we have that opportunity now the true question tonight is what is true of scripture and is there time and a place for things to start and cease what are the gospels for and what are the epistles for and a matter of fact i have this written down and was prepared to address this and where does the book of acts fall in between the two sections of scripture the gospels in the book of acts are categorized as historical records that have excuse me i'm gonna have to get my glasses my print's smaller on this page old age catches up man so the goss come here the gospels and the book of acts are categories categorized as historical records of events that have taken place throughout the redemptive history of the new testament church in other words they record things that have been done now that does not necessarily mean that all things that took place in these books are to be repeated obviously there are commands contained within the gospels which to be performed which are to be performed today as new testament believers for example the commandment to love the lord your god with all your heart mind and soul i stated in matthew 22 37 however the historical events are not to be duplicated the epistles on the other hand are documents inspired by god written through the apostles indicating what we are to do it today in other words the gospels and the book of acts state what has been done while the epistles state what is to be done there is some biblical data on how the new testament uses terms like unclean spirits and demon and how many times as well the facts i have for you tonight are are gathered by jim osmond that in historical texts demons and unclean spirits are mentioned 103 times in the epistles and in the book of revelation 16 times what conclusion can we can be arrived from these facts first the accounts of demonic forces dramatically decrease after jesus ascension the second conclusion that we can be arrived at is the fact that the apostles did not have nearly the focus on demonic activity in their ministry and work one of the reasons for this is because jesus had authority and in inherent in his nature as the son of god and the messiah and the authorities served as an affirmation of what he claimed to be these demonstrations were no longer necessary after his ascension although the apostles did still have this authority in order to continue the foundation of the church which is stated in ephesians ephesians 2 20. based of what off of what we of what the historical records of the new testament state can we say that my opponent is doing what my opponent is doing is the same as what jesus did i think the answer is going to be a clear no christ before miracles such as healing casting out devils and raising people from the dead they were all healed all delivered and all rescued every time without failure these miraculous accounts were also verified by eight witnesses who were astonished astounded after dramatic change in the state of the person take for example in mark chapter 5 verses 1-20 when christ when christ cast out the legion from the man and the tombs and the people who witnessed this miracle were amazed at the fact that he was clothed and in his right mind verse 15. one final question must be raised when jesus spoke were of works greater than the ones he was performing what was he talking about can my opponent raise anyone from the dead better than jesus as he said no can he cast out demons better than jesus no the answer is going to be no the greater works that jesus spoke about was the spiritual resurrection of the dead that we experience at salvation when the believer is indwelt with the holy spirit colossians 1 13 says that christ has delivered us from the power of darkness and has translated us into the kingdom of his dear son ephesians 1 4 through 6 says but god who was rich in mercy for his great love wherewith he loved us when we were dead in sins hath quickened us together with christ by grace ye are saved and hath raised us up together and hath quickened us together in heavenly places in christ jesus the greater works which we perform as believers is is the sharing of the gospel the very power to perform excuse me the very power of god unto salvation if the works which my opponent is performing is not the same of those which jesus performed then from what source is he drawing from to do these acts is he attributing the works of the devil to the works of the spirit of god if he is then he is guilty of blasphemy of the holy spirit remember that even magicians were able to duplicate the plagues with which moses sent upon the egyptians so tonight i say he who has hairs ears to hear let him hear how many how much time do i have left two minutes actually i just i think i'm going to close there instead i'm afraid i'll go down to rabbit jump so let's just close all right pastor lock you have uh 10 minutes when you start and let me also retort and say that if what we're doing is by the hand of god and you attribute what we're doing to the devil then you're committing the blasphemy against the holy spirit it works both ways at the end of the day because here's the facts that is nonsense about that historical stuff with the book of acts you know why because all the epistles were written during the same time frame that the book of acts was being played out he wrote all the epistles and so since we want to bring up the epistle ideas he's like well you know there's 16 times in this and this and that's beautiful and that's what you only need one reference everybody's like show me one verse you show them one verse and like well that's just one verse it's all you asked for but he just claimed 16 so you want the epistles and so let's move to the episodes colossians 1 13 he just claimed it and he tries to say that and many people try to say they're against deliverance ministry we've already been delivered from the kingdom of darkness that is positional truth you are not right now without the kingdom of darkness it is everywhere that is positional practically you're still a mess it's like your flesh you have been saved from the penalty of sin you are being saved from the power of sin but one day you'll be saved from the presence of sin but you are not saved from the presence of sin right now you know what the apostle paul said in the book of romans here's an interesting fact he said in my flesh comma dwells no good thing well something dwells there he said dwells no good thing so my question is why is it that everybody has this apprehension that the holy spirit cannot reside in your spirit with a demon residing in your flesh when the apostle paul said the holy spirit resides in me and my flesh is wicked and murderous and adulterous and corrupt and ungodly and if you believe in the eternality of god that he can be everywhere at one time then he's already around sin it has no bearing on the fact as to whether i'm under demonic oppression or not even the devil as the accuser of the brethren three times went to the throne room of god the devil in the very presence of god and so that's a new argument but since we want to use these let me just say this all right first corinthians okay you got one of the epistles of the apostle paul we're going to get to ephesians galatians in first corinthians 5 you know what paul said to a guy that was an unrepentant fornicator that was sleeping with his mom's with his dad's wife he was having sex with his stepmother you know what paul said turn such a one over to satan for the destruction of the flesh that the spirit may be saved to the day of lord jesus biblical proof that the devil has the ability to destroy your flesh if god so gives him that that worthiness to be able to do so and so the apostle paul said turn him over to the devil all right here's another one from the apostle paul the spirit of fear god's not given us the spirit of fear notice he didn't call it the atmosphere of fear he called it a spirit spirit is a demon fear is demonic and the bible says in first john chapter three that fear has torment you know what the number one thing is that demons do they torment you they keep you awake at night they take your peace that's what demons do and so he said god's not giving us a spirit of fear he said in ephesians 4 give not place to the devil do not give place to the devil the word place means occupancy do not give over to the allurements if you will of the devil then first timothy 4 1 another epistle right he says in the last days we will give heed the church not lost people not drunkards and people on stripper poles church people will give heed to seducing spirits they will listen to demons and then and doctrines of demons and we see a lot about that we preached on that this past weekend right kenneth copeland he's a doctrine of a demon he's just a demon period but nonetheless thought i'd get that in for the live stream crowd since they're mad about it but at the end of the day he said there's going to come a time when the church gives into doctrines of demons and gives heed to seducing spirits you know what paul said paul said that his affliction in his flesh was a messenger of satan to buffet him the word messenger is the greek word angelos he said an angel of satan we'd call that a demon we'd call that an unclean foul spirit is exactly what we call that and yet he said that he was afflicted again it's not possession it's oppression it's affliction and paul clearly said it himself right there in the context of galatians ephesians even the book of james james says every man is tempted when he is drawn away of his own lusts and enticed now i'm not going to impress you with the greek language i'm not here to impress i'm here to impact and so is he with the gospel and the truth of god's words let me say this there's only one way that reads in the greek the temptation is our flesh the enticement to the temptation is an outer source there's no way around that that's the only way the greek bears that out you know what demons do they entice your flesh people are like well you think everything's a spirit no a lot of it's my flesh my flesh is a crap fest but let me see what the bible says crucify your flesh submit to god and if you do those things and you still have trouble with your flesh then something is manipulating your flesh something is causing you to have that oppression the bible calls it a spirit of heaviness and by the way since i got a couple of minutes let me just say this he was mentioning the few times that uh the the origin or gem or whatever the guy's name was that he quoted let me exactly tell you what the bible really does say about demonic activity because it doesn't matter what greg says or dwayne says it matters what the bible says here's what the bible says proper names and biblical descriptions of demons in the bible there's no way that you can go away and and be like well you know i just don't think they exist they had to go somewhere they didn't die okay they're either still around or they're not here's what the bible says about them calls them devils demons lying spirit holy spirit seducing spirits spirit of bondage spirit of fear evil spirits foul spirit unclean spirit spirit of divination spirit of error spirit of jealousy familiar spirits perverse spirit spirit of heaviness spirit of whoredoms spirit of infirmity deaf spirit dumb spirit spirit of antichrist spirit of poverty spirit of death spirit of slumber babylonian spirits spirits of the world spirit of disobedience ashtaroth apollyon abaddon molech kemos satan lucifer belial beelzebub jezebel red dragon python beijean lilith bale dagon behemoth leviathan orion legion serpent angel of light tempter accuser god of this world king of tyree prince of persia milkem that's a lot of verses that's a lot of verses and to say that 16 verses aren't enough is theological gymnastics it's theological gymnastics the bible is filled from cover to cover with demonic activity and there's only one way to combat it and it's not a formula the formula is there's power in the name of jesus christ that's the formula that's the only formula that we have that's the only formula that we have but when you drill down in deliverance ministry you have to understand there are people that struggle with these spirits and you do have to deal with them on an individual basis we would call it biblical discipleship so again we can't just obey parts of the bible and then conveniently skip over the rest of the bible because it's not just the book of acts that six times talks about it it is the books of the epistles that were written during the very time of the book of acts i too used to stand where he stands and i applaud him let me tell you something not a pastor in america was willing to do this not one and this guy did it he got a backbone and i thank god for i don't deny that he believes the gospel i don't deny that but at the end of the day we have to be able to ask ourselves the questions what are we really arguing about here there's either demons or they're not and there's either power over them in the name of jesus or there's not and if there's not then i'm a fool and he wins but at the end of the day it's not about him winning or me winning it's about people being set free because the ministry of jesus was about laying his hands upon all that were oppressed by the devil and he said i came to preach deliverance to the captives so we may use different terminology and at the end of the day both get in the barn just two different directions he doesn't deny demonic activity he doesn't deny demonic affliction but we have to be able to answer the question why do we not think that the church of which all of these church fathers i just read can show you actual quotations of which they still believe that demonic activity exists and we have the power to cast it out so just because people do it wrong and they do there are some crooks not everybody on tv the bad two pain in the bible under arms has been called by the holy ghost there are false teachers there's no doubt but i do not believe talking about the ministry of not the gospel the effects of the gospel the gospel's plain death burial resurrection john 14 6 i'm the way the truth and life no man comes to the father but by me all right jesus is the only way to the kingdom of god no matter what oprah winfrey told you he's the only way right but understand something we're talking about the effects of the gospel when jesus told people to preach the gospel he said here's what you do as an effective preaching the gospel you bring the kingdom of darkness to light and you overshadow the darkness with the light of the gospel of jesus christ and they that believe shall have these signs that follow them they shall cast out devils and so it's very easy to make dead people say what you want them to but the bible is very plain it didn't cease okay i used to be a strict cessationist i am not because you can't show me in the bible where the gifts see there's nowhere in first corinthians 13 is an absolute absolute farce when people say this is where it says it ceases but they can't show you in the context why it ceases but i can show you why it did not the gifts did not cease they are for the perfecting of the saints for the work of the ministry for the edifying of the body of christ get this teal we all come into the unity of the faith and that hasn't happened yet that's why we're having this debate the gifts still work until we're all unified around the throne of god and we have nothing to argue about because in that day the common denominator will not be global vision it will not be deliverance ministry it'll be jesus that's it and so both the old testament new testament and every since the testament and yeah it looks a little messy looks a little weird but more churches need to be concerned about people's deliverance than their dignity we'll learn about the carpet and set some people free okay set some people free in the name of the lord jesus christ all right we are going to uh take a 10-minute break at this time these brothers have been good with their time now i'm timing y'all so we'll give 10 minutes and we'll come back so we can get started for the next round thanks thank you the second half of the event tonight i'd invite you all to take your seats reset here you all are doing a great job out there so we'll we're going to get started with the next the next section which will be the cross examination portion and during the cross examination we're going to have two rounds so i'll explain this again in a little more detail first will be uh brother charles who will have five minutes to ask questions of pastor locke and pastor locke will answer and then pastor locke will have five minutes to ask brother charles a question and then we'll do that again so brother charles will have five minutes then pastor lock we'll have five minutes and then we'll move into closing statements so dwayne will uh we'll let you go and we'll start when you start all right real quick yeah let's let the crowd settle please okay you all got it okay thank y'all okay real quick and let's uh i want to go back to something you said um in your in your last uh speech there um and i'd just like you to clarify something for me if you don't mind please um you said we can be in dwelt in the flesh and dwelt in the spirit can you give a biblical example and kind of expound on that real quick please we'll do a back and forth so he can answer and then but it's five minutes during the time okay we'll mess up the float uh so a biblical example would be that of the apostle paul he said in my flesh you know he said that there's a messenger of satan that buffeted me so the courtyard of the temple is different than the holy of holies in the temple and so i do believe we have a flesh and which dwells no good thing whatsoever and so if no good thing can dwell there then obviously there can be demonic sickness infirmities you know different types of spirits and things like that so again it's not that a person can be indwelt in their spirit that's where the holy spirit resides but certainly our flesh can house demonic activity without a shout of a doubt even the apostle peter looked at ananias and sapphira people who had just recently been saved of of the new way of salvation as it were they never heard the gospel they get saved they get baptized we know that they're in good cahoots with people in the church because they start to do the same thing that barnabas does and in chapter five in verse number four peter looks at him and he says you've been influenced why have you allowed satan to fill your heart so that you would lie to the holy ghost and so i understand that it's an uncomfortable subject that christians can have demons but please let's make sure we understand the contextual narrative that we're trying to paint is not that you can be some linda blair exorcist hollywood movie fall down the steps type of an individual that is completely overcome by the devil it just means you are really afflicted and in my flesh dwells no good thing and so that's what i meant when i made that statement okay thank you thank you for that answer so you say that we can be in dwelt by satan and by the spirit at the same time by demons yeah by demons okay by a devil yes we'll put it that way that would be thank you that would actually be the correct terminology and i'll agree with that give me an example other than what you just stated give me a specific example i i just gave you no no no no i'll go back to it let's go back to one you uh commented on uh in one of your sermons you said judas yes you brought up judas that judas was in dwelt with the holy spirit but no i never said that no i watched the video five times absolutely i never said that okay i never said judas wasn't dwelled by the holy spirit all right gotcha judas was the son of perdition he was going to hell no matter how he died okay i understand so if you possess the same authority that jesus had to cast out devils yes um do you also have the authority to raise people from the dead and heal i don't have the the power to deliver or heal anybody jesus has the power if he wants to raise the dead he could raise the dead what would be wrong with that if he wants to i'm not claiming that i'm able to do it i'm not claiming that i'm able to do it but i mean you know certainly he's raised a lot of people spiritually from the dead but to say that god couldn't raise somebody from the dead today is really that that's kind of an asinine statement that i mean if he wants to use me to raise the dead they can use me to raise the dead do i believe all these nonsensical people in third world countries that never have a camera and 50 people were raised from the dead no there's a process there's an order god's not the author of confusion but if he wants to use me to raise somebody from the dead that's on him i'm not the healer i'm not the redeemer okay you've answered the question thank you so why are you not visiting funeral homes and children's hospital i preach at a lot of funeral homes a whole lot of them so have you raised them no no i've never had a family member say hey we come here and raise my dad from the dead you know gotcha but i guarantee you if they asked me and somebody was in a situation where somebody was dying or just had died and they said hey would you pray or why would i be ashamed to pray over okay so now colossians 1 13 says we have forgiveness of our sins and redemption through through uh excuse me that's the future no colossians 1 13 unless i misprinted her when i was praying okay so says we have forgiveness of sins and redemption through and in christ why is that we still need further deliverance after our sins have been paid for because we still have an evil flesh my flesh is not saved your flesh is not saved and so you know there's well two people in my breast one is foul one is blessed when i love one i hate the one i feed will dominate and so the devil comes out to the flesh he can't get after my spirit i'm a child of god i'm sealed ephesians 4 30 until the day of redemption and so it doesn't my salvation deliverance has nothing to do with minimizing salvation positionally i'm seated with christ in heavenly places but i'm not there right now practically i'm still a mess and i'm in a wet rainy damp tent and so it doesn't change my position in christ the blood of jesus christ cleanses us from all sin and we will be saved one day from the presence of sin but we're not saved from the presence of sin right now we're only saved from the penalty of sin at this point all right okay and i can just do multiple questions that way we can go okay absolutely so in your estimation then do you believe in demonic activity i mean you're not going to deny the reality of demons right so my question is do you then believe that demons still cause sickness and irregularities or problems in people's lives and they can afflict christians what i believe is that the church in other words the body of christ us not the building can be oppressed by demons okay what i also believe is that they cannot touch what is holy now our flesh he is correct is not holy we are wretched men there is no doubt about that but we are covered by the blood of the lamb and that is what allows the holy spirit to indwell us making us the new temple okay that is what i believe okay all right now as far as the unbeliever the unrepented what i believe is that they are of the world and they are of satan's children and until they come to repentance they are fair game absolutely in john 8 44 we're born children of the devil but we also have to understand the seven times worse principle of matthew chapter 12 when the unclean spirit comes out of a man he walks in dry places he finds none he goes back to his home well that's obviously jesus even said that the deliverance was the children's bread it wasn't the world's bread it wasn't lost people why one of the things i don't understand about some deliverance ministries and we're just learning this why would we even want to cast demons out of a lost person because we know that the demons are going to come back deliverance is not for lost people salvation is for lost people deliverance is for freedom in god's people so that we can get our flesh cleaned up so that we don't have to have a nicotine addiction for the rest of our lives so we don't have to have some spirit of lust that lingers around and we have you know molestation and pornography and this that and the other and so the question is you know at the end of the day if in fact you really believe that we can't be touched by any demonic activity then why is there such thing as a spirit of fear why is there such thing as a spirit of slumber why is there a spirit of infirmity can spirits make christians sick yes or no no okay that's a clear denial of scripture clear denial of scripture absolutely now is every sickness of spirit absolutely not but many people will never be healed because the spirit of infirmity has never come out of their body so i mean we have to ask ourselves the question where did all the demons go where are they are you asking me are you making a statement i'm i'm asking you where'd all the demons go they're here they're in this tent yes they're all around they're everywhere but they can't touch us no not if you are a repented spirit-filled christian they can persuade us they can tempt us they can oppress us in those forms they can do it in such a way that is so horrible you may think someone is a is actually possessed but no they cannot touch us okay so sickness is never demonically supercharged i did not say that it kind of just i did not say that in christians oh so it's only in lost people so demons only bother lost people that's what we're saying that's not what i said either okay i'm gonna forfeit my time because i'm super confused okay because it's exactly what he said all right we're going to go back to uh you brother charles for five minutes are there apostles today are there apostles today are there apostles today two things about that number one that has jack spratt to do with deliverance ministry answer the question are there apostles today there are people with apostolic gifts absolutely but i call myself an apostle absolutely not because here's the lie that you've been taught by your calvinist friends and the question are the are there and here's the answer to it i'm still the pastor of this church i'll tell you that right now you understand that answer the question apostle does not mean eyewitness that is a lie that some baptist taught you apostle means sent one and you know what the bible says he gave some apostles and prophets and pastors teachers who to give them to the temple he gave them to the church how long are they available for till we all come into the unity the church is still going and we're obviously not still in unity but apostles have jack spratt to do with deliverance minister whatsoever okay i don't go around calling myself an apostle and so as far as i'm concerned strike that from the minutes that has nothing to do with casting out devils because it was more than the apostles that got to cast out devils so are there apostles today i just answered the question i'm asking for there are people with an apostolic gift i don't use the word you know uh apostles today why are you dodging the question i'm not dodging the question there are people with the apostolic gift of fatherhood that are able to be leaders of leaders that's an apostle so if that's the definition of apostle absolutely okay so there are apostles today absolutely okay there we have an answer thank you which has nothing to do with demons nothing to do with demons this is a great demon debate not a great apostle of debate we can have that next week if you'd like to have that all right we'll let you ask ask your next question thank you so if so if there are apostles today do we deal with the biblical requirement that all apostles being eyewitnesses are of the resurrected lord no because eyewitness is not what the word apostle means can i remind you that the apostle paul was not of the 12 apostles and he was not the one that was reinstated when judas killed himself it was matthias and the apostle paul is not going to have his name on one of the 12 stones of the gates in the new jerusalem and in the book of hebrews the bible says that jesus himself is our high apostle so he was not eyewitness to the resurrected christ on the road to damascus absolutely not he was an eyewitness to jesus coming but he wasn't an eyewitness to the resurrection when he says i was one blown out i didn't say the resurrection i said the resurrected christ did not strike the only person that ever resurrected this jesus and so it's the same answer at the end of the day it's the same answer he was not there for the resurrection of jesus he was an eyewitness in acts chapter number nine when the light of god threw him on the ground and he heard the phrase and he says what will thou have me to do but that has nothing to do with the fact that there are other people in the bible such as stephen and philip that were not apostles that cast out devils that performed miracles and that preached the gospel plainly and great things transpired to their ministry but they were not apostles they were deacons they were elders evangelists that they weren't apostles all right i got one last question and maybe i'll follow up with that if we can get through it quickly um can christians be demonized yes what is the definition the original definition of demonizing needs to be oppressed to be afflicted by acts 10 38 jesus went about doing good how do you do good showing compassion laying his hand on everybody that was oppressed so it's affliction it's temptation it's enticement that's what demonize means it does not mean an indwelling within my soul or within my spirit it's it's an affliction what is the original greek definition diamonds and uh the ends of my i mean i know i'm murdering that word i know yeah but that's not it's a hard word to pronounce it means to be afflicted by to be tormented by to be moved by to be enticed by it it's exactly what it means does not mean to be under the power or possessed by a demon it absolutely means to be under the power to be possessed no it does not mean to be possessed absolutely not the word possession is an unfortunate word oh okay gotcha and is there anywhere in the new testament where the term demonize is used to describe a believer every single time that the word possessed is used uh it's the word demonized uh acts chapter number 16 the girl of divination she was not a lost girl there's no doubt about that she had the spirit of python which we find a whole lot of times uh in the church world the bible calls it that spirit of pythonia it's the greek word pythonia you know i think you're in a clap i don't have no claps i know what i'm talking about and it's the greek word python which means the spirit of python is the spirit of divination the spirit of divination comes upon believers you know why because the spirit of divination is a person that has a prophetic gift a person that has a discerning gift but they use it under the anointing of the wrong spirit and that can only be a believer when that happens and i i would have to say knowing the apostle paul and how straight-laced he was there's no way he's going to let this chick follow them for many days if she's going to be lost and ungodly this was a woman that was going to a prayer meeting the bible said a prayer meeting she had submitted herself to teaching and he cast a demon of divination out of her body okay now speak something real quick before we go to the next line of questioning it's time just to address something just to address something i understand that just your church and i respect that but you called me up here and gave me time to ask you questions if i fill the questions absolutely but i did not call you here to disrespect me in front of my congregation so let's keep going okay uh pastor lock five minutes to you all right this is a good crowd tonight no doubt about it it's a fraction of what the lord gives us on a weekend but that being said if you're a christian and you're not some deviant low down good for nothing lying devilish antichrist and you believe the bible and you've gone through deliverance and it helped you stand to your feet right now all over this room so my question is stay standing are they liars and under the deception of a false prophet i don't know a single one of them i won't call any of them anything what i will do is say based on them standing does not tell me what scripture says but based on the debate you've not told me anything that scripture says tonight no not at all revelation 12 11 and they overcame it by the blood of the lamb and by the word of their testimony now let me ask you a question how do you know you're saved give me two ways you know you're saved there's only two i'm repented and i'm filled with the holy spirit right what's the evidence of the fact that you've been repented of you the fruit the bible tells you that you've been saved and what's the fruit it's good the experience of a changed life yes okay so they have the exact same two testimonies that we would have for salvation whereas we would say well you know we can't talk about demons in an experiential level yeah your theology and your experience have to match your experience cannot go against the grain of the word of god so i would say how do i know i'm saved bible says so and i know what i experienced he changed my life how do these people know they've been delivered the bible says so and they know what they experience because god changed their life there's no difference in that the experience and the theology are one of the same so again the question is it doesn't matter if you know them you said give me one example i've given you like 250 of them and we've put thousands of people through deliverance ministry they can't all be lying now i'm sure some of them are just melee mouth individuals that want a bunch of attention they can't all be lying do you have another question what's that do you have your next question that's the only question i want to ask are they lying and if they're lying what would make them do such a thing why is their experience and deliverance not enough biblically when your salvation is enough biblically when you simply say well i know because god changed my life why can't they say the same thing that's the question sit down i'm not here to question anyone's salvation i'm not asking about salvation i'm answering the question as well you brought the boat you put both of those in there i'm not here to question anyone's salvation i'm not here to comment on deliverances that i have not been a part of and clinical evidence does not match up against biblical truth and that is my answer what clinical evidence i asked you to come to a mass deliverance service and you refused because you assumed it was going to be just like the church you grew up in but that's an assumption because it's not like the church you grew up in it may get a little chaotic when you know people are getting some freedom but it's nothing like the church you grew up in matter of fact people have been in deliverance ministers for 40 years they they want us to take them through training because it's done discreetly and kindly and with compassion and with love it's not like we're mongrels in here just trying to stir up the devil because you know we hate the gospel and we hate jesus and it's all in the power of the name of jesus okay i get it if any hand the rest of them crooks you know they've given us all a bad name but at the end at the end of the day yeah i am i'm making a statement as i ask them so at the end of the day how can you discount by simply saying well there's not enough evidence there is enough evidence their experience matches the word if their experience goes beyond the word and they're saying oh i've been talking to my dead grandmother at the foot of my bed i don't know absolutely you haven't been talking to a demons what you've been talking to and so how come it how come it doesn't work for them how could you look at them and say you know what that's just not enough clinical evidence when we asked you why wouldn't you come for example and just see it it's like me being a food critic of a restaurant i never eat at it doesn't make any sense i'm not going to criticize a restaurant for having bad food if i never tried their food and so why wouldn't you just sit sit in the back wear a hat ain't no cameras around and just watch so why what made you say absolutely not and then still be critical of something you don't even know that we do again i do not need physical evidence to tell me what scripture says that's very poor theology there's physical evidence that jesus rose from the dead and to say that there's no physical evidence means that we serve a dead jew and a palestinian too i don't need the physical evidence my faith is in the word of god exactly exactly and their faith is in the word of god and that's why they believe in the ministry of being delivered from evil spirits because they've experienced what the bible hundreds of times explains that they can experience okay we're going to move into closing statements at this time pastor locke you have 10 minutes for your closing statement i just want to talk for a couple of minutes about the ridiculous arguments that come against the ministry of deliverance and i get it there's people that make it hokey there's people that make it weird there's people that make it fall down the steps and make it very very uncomfortable in a lot of ways and they do some very unscriptural things and they cause a lot of damage i don't minimize that okay i don't minimize that i don't take deliverance on the road for a reason because this is not a horse and pony show and so i want to say this about the objections to deliverance ministry i'm just going to give you a few of them okay he didn't have to answer these he has his own closing statement but here's the main objections to deliverance ministry they say it's not in the bible well it's filled with the bible both old and new testament and again deliverance old testament is different than deliverance new testament but deliverance is all in the name of jesus and that's even what jesus said he's going to do and so we we have to be able to answer the question is mark 16 true or is it not if it's after the resurrection and these signs shall follow them that believe where in the bible does that cease it's not when the apostles died it doesn't say that it says these signs shall follow them that believe then it obviously carries on to the book of acts it proficiently carries on through the entirety of church history all the way up until today even though some people might be a little wanky and crazy about it it continued very much so and so the argument that it's not a biblical mandate that's ever mentioned is really kind of a moot point because it's mentioned all over the bible it's continually mentioned and then they say well it's not an important issue it's it's a massively important issue we're talking about what the bible calls in revelation 21 8 a spirit of pharmakia sorcery witchcraft we had a lady here the other night that didn't even speak a lick of english not a lick of english when i got to the spirit of pharmakia she flared up and she began to weep and she began to sob it wasn't she wasn't flying around speaking in some crazy language and jumping all over the place but it obviously did something that demon knew exactly what i was talking about there's a spirit of pharmakia there's an addictiveness why would we not want people to have freedom in christ are you kidding me why is it that we get up and we preach you can have love you can have joy you can have peace you don't have to be addicted to porn you can have a great marriage everything can rock on you can have rivers of living water and then we send people home and their marriage is falling apart their kids are going to hell they're addicted to pornography their life's a mess they have to smoke as much dope to go to sleep as the world does and we're just like the culture and then i get up and say you know what i believe there's freedom in christ you're dealing with an unclean spirit come out in jesus name and everybody's like oh my goodness you are such a heretic and it's the exact same thing they told jesus when he did it so he says what authority do you have what do you have the same authority as jesus i have the authority jesus gave me right the little lady down the road here in the morning that you know throws up her hand to stop cars when people are driving by she has no authority in that hand they could run over if they want to her hand represents the authority she's been given not natural authority that she has in and of herself she puts her hand up and everybody stops because they know if they don't they're going to be in trouble with the county right and so it is an important issue then they say well it's only a charismatic practice that is ridiculous have some charismatics taking things way too far absolutely okay i'm not a charismatic i'm not a baptist i'm not a pentecostal i want to be a bible christian right i want to be a bible christian i'm not a baptista i'm going to be a bible christian and so they say well it's a it's clearly a charismatic practice martin luther was not a charismatic not a charismatic okay george whitefield was not a charismatic ethanasius was not a charismatic origin was not a curious augustine was far from a charismatic right they just they were not charismatics but they believed that people suffered from demonic oppression and affliction and they needed relief and they understood the principle that the only relief they get is in the power of the name of jesus and so we're not introducing anything new has it been kind of a hot button issue for a long time yeah but what happens is nobody talked about it so when you hear deliverance ministry you think two things do you think a bert reynolds movie right or you think some guy that pastors five people under a rock in a cave in the shroud of darkness with no internet following whatsoever and he's doing things secretly and they're handling snakes that's all we ever hear but once we brought national attention to it all we did was open up the door to something that's been around for a very very long time we just brought attention to it and it kind of freaked people out because they didn't expect that from us they certainly didn't expect it from somebody like me that stood on his side of the platform and just years ago would have very vehemently spoke against what i'm talking about now but i didn't learn something from a man c.h spurgeon didn't teach me something the bible taught me something the holy spirit taught me something so it is not a charismatic practice have they used it outlandishly yeah it's a biblical practice it's a new testament practice and then people say well you know it's dangerous to talk about demons it's dangerous not to so many verses we just dealt with how many times god talked about it jesus never shied away from talking about the the spiritual culture of his day he wanted to prove the reality of two kingdoms there are only two the devil's kingdom and god's kingdom and so we have to be able to talk about demons and he says well you know if you talk about demons you give them power that's a lie of the devil john 8 44. you know why if you don't talk about them you give them power when you talk about them you take away their power because you make that which is invisible visible and the devil doesn't want that he doesn't want to be seen he would just assume as he said float around in this tent he doesn't want to be seen but we're bringing him to light i don't care what you call it exorcism deliverance casting out demons okay what you call it i don't need a title for it i have the power for it and the authority for it and the authority comes through the name of jesus christ and then people say well it should never be practiced publicly well jesus always practice it publicly you know it's interesting that most of the time jesus casts a devil out of somebody they were already in the synagogue submitted to teaching they weren't wild wicked vile people run around smoking crack in the parking lot right but the bible says that you know what jesus did he took the spirit out of the man and left the man in the synagogue you know what the american church would do kick the man out of the church and leave the spirit inside the man and i refused to do that i used to would have done that but i refused to do that and so jesus was never ashamed of it he never apologized for it and he never stopped him like oh my goodness turn the camera's off you know somebody's manifested oh my goodness no no he used it as a springboard to do what to preach the gospel because it's all about the gospel because the gospel is the power of god and salvation the gospel is enough to save you from your sin but the name of jesus christ is also enough to continue to cleanse you every single day of your life and to get and maintain deliverance and then they say that every spirit or every problem isn't a spirit i agree with that i mean i know so there's spirit of the speaker a spirit not everything is a spirit but as we've seen tonight there's a whole lot more spirits out there than we give them credit for there's a lot of spirits there's a spirit of infirmity in the bible for a reason right there's a lot of spirits in the world we just read dozens and dozens of their names and their descriptions and we didn't even have time to deal with their functions many different functions demons are cowards they never come in one they always come in groups they always come in groups they're cowards right and so people are like well you know everything that we struggle with is not a demon you're exactly right but when in doubt cast it out because i'll tell you something you can't crucify demon and you can't cast out the flesh but you can crucify your flesh and cast out a demon that's what the bible teaches that's the progression and then lastly i just want to say that one of the ridiculous objections is well you know it makes people uncomfortable it should it's demons it's supposed to make people uncomfortable we're talking about the devil talking about demons we're talking about addiction we're talking about lust we're talking about deviance we're talking about the spirit that now that's continuous tense it was written in the present tense then and it's written the present tense now it continues on the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience what's causing this world to be disobedient the bible says in ephesians 2 it's a spirit it is a spirit that we have to understand and what we are dealing with is the very fact that they're spirits that we're fighting they're demons that your family are fighting there are generational curses that i'm sorry you are not broken free from until you put on your big boy britches and you call against it in the name of the lord jesus because even god said when idolatry and witchcraft is involved he said i will visit the iniquity of your fathers to the third and fourth generation that's what god said that's 120-160 years some of you were born with a generational curse that you need to break off you were born with it jesus became a curse on the tree because cursed is a person that dies on the tree the bible says in the book of deuteronomy he fulfilled he that knew no sin became sin for us that we might be made the righteousness of god in him that's our positional standing before god but practically man there's witchcraft everywhere still being spoken over us and so at the end of the day we we cannot discount deliverance ministry because it makes people feel weird like when we throw witches out of the church it's reality of the world we're living in okay god said in deuteronomy chapter number 28 the wizards the witches the warlocks the divination the sorcery all this evil he said expose it for what it is and have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness but rather what reprove them and so every week we we reprove them we don't patty cake them we don't placate to them we prove them we expose it and so i don't apologize for deliverance ministry being a little bit messy and making people feel uncomfortable i think when you talk about the devil and demons it ought to make you uncomfortable and i think the church in america is too comfortable and that's why god said in revelation to that church you know what your problem is you're so comfortable you tolerate that jezebel you tolerate that jezebel and that jezebel spirit is very much alive and well and people can laugh people can hate us online we can disagree till the cows come home and probably will but at the end of the day i'm gonna tell you the number one thing that the church struggles with religious demons religious spirits religious spirits and so when it comes to religious spirit i don't say what i say with anything else come out in jesus name come out in jesus name thank you pastor locke now move over to uh brother charles 10 minute closing stamina thank you tonight i have not given you my opinion i've only given you the scriptures what the scriptures say although you know where i come from notice that my experiences have not defined what the bible says whether the scripture whether the scriptures have brought me out of the of the charismatic movement because it is the scriptures which ought to dictate our experiences not the other way around to those who have had ears to hear tonight i say i say scripture clearly states when it comes to deliverance from possession in the unbeliever and oppression in the believer that scripture alone is enough that christ alone is enough that faith alone is enough that grace alone is enough and that all things are to be done to the glory of god alone the gospel is enough the salvation of that the salvation that christ provides through the sacrifice that he made at calvary is enough to deliver us from the biggest obstacle that we as fallen sinful humans have to overcome this salvation that our sins would be this salvation that our sins would be forgiven and that the punishment of our sins might fall on christ and in turn we receive his righteousness his righteousness so that we might have everlasting life if the gospel which christ came to preach and it is in the gospel that christ came to preach excuse me and it is through faith in this gospel that the world will be radically transformed and brought to the kingdom of darkness or excuse me brought out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light where you will be held in the security of the lord and our savior and never let go now that we have addressed this question tonight i ask you one more thing does my opponent bear the marks of a faithful servant of the lord let's let the scripture decide remind them of these things charge them before the lord not to strive about words to no prophet to run of the hearers be diligent to present yourself approved to god a worker who does not need to be ashamed rightly dividing the word of truth but shun and idle babblings for they will increase to more unguidedness and their message will spread like cancer further on in first timothy 3 2 7 it says therefore an overseer must be above reproach the husband of one wife so reminded self-controlled respectable hospitable able to teach not a drunkard not violent but gentle not quarrelsome not a lover of money he must manage his own household well with all dignity keep his children submissive for if someone does not know how to manage his house owned household how will he care for god's church he must not be a recent convert or he'd become puffed up with conceit and fell into the comment condemnation of the devil moreover he must be well thought of by outsiders so that he may not fall into disgrace into the despair of the devil the word of god is clear these are necessary marks of a true servant of the lord without these a man is not fit to hold an office in the church while the violation of these requirements are all sins they all can be forgiven however the violations of these requirements do permanently disqualify greg from the office of pastor so it is with love and reverence for the word of god and his church that i will call greg locke to step down from his office as pastor and repent and greg i say to you if you continue to hold this office you are in rebellion of the lord and our savior jesus christ and in rebellion to scripture itself we'll give him his time i'm done thank you all right we are now going to move into this this ends the formal debate we're going to now move into address questions that i have for the speaker it's been difficult for me because i came prepared with questions that you all have answered throughout the course of the debate so i've been tweaking and modifying and forgive me if there's a little bit of overlap as we do this so i'm just going to set up a two-minute timer so each each speaker will have two minutes to uh to answer these questions and they'll be asked of both individuals and i will put on different hats to ask questions that are critical of each giving the other the opportunity to answer the same question so um hopefully this will will be edifying so uh the first question is going to come to you brother charles yes sir so uh and and the timer will start when i finish the question so okay uh mark chapter 9 verse 38 to 40 says now john answered him saying teacher we saw someone who does not follow us casting out demons in your name and we forbade him because he does not follow us but jesus said do not forbid him for no one who works a miracle in my name can soon afterwards speak evil of me for he who is not against us is on our side so this isn't jesus or the disciples casting out demons and jesus seems to encourage this behavior of this stranger uh so where do the epistles or where else do you see in scripture that this is something that should be discouraged i am not very good at text proofing i'll be honest quickly okay i am not a pastor i'm not a 30-year vet greg can run through this a lot quicker than me so i'm not going to sit here and just blow smoke you know i'm not going to do that what i will say about the verse itself is that there are false prophets who have done things in the name of jesus successfully why do you think they go forward and say lord lord i have cast out demons in your name i perform miracles in your name and he sends them away as as lawless men um that would be my explanation for that verse okay pastor locke two minutes same thing well that man was obviously validated by jesus he wasn't a false prophet that the text bears that out jesus said he's on our side so leave him alone at this particular point so jesus was not castigating what the god did and again of course there's going to be people that say lord lord did we not cast out devils in your name which would tell us that it's still happening even in this very day even if ungodly people are doing it still works the power so you can't take it away and so jesus was not saying oh this guy's a false prophet so go shut him up he said leave the man alone because what he's doing is gathering with us and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad don't you think jesus would have walked over and grabbed him by the collar and said you ought to resign you silly pastor you huh right don't you think he would have said that but he didn't he said go ahead and do it just keep preaching so there is nowhere in the bible where jesus would ever or any epistle would ever condemn the commandment and the blessing that jesus just placed upon this man he said go preach cast out demons in my name there will never be an end to that ever okay pastor locke um it's accepted the occasion for miracles and and miraculous signs throughout the scripture uh usually tends to a pattern of accompanying new revelation throughout the scripture so we see moses we see the prophets we see jesus and the apostles all coming to god's people with a new message that would be tended to be disbelieved and uh joining that is miraculous signs that authenticate this new message that's given to them uh and so is there new revelation that these miraculous signs are needed to authenticate or has this pattern changed and if so uh where do you see that shift the bible is a revelation the canon's closed we don't need any further revelation do i believe that that god can give someone a word of wisdom certainly i believe that i believe in the trying of the spirits the discerning of the spirits but there's not going to be no new revelation when the ink pen events when pin of inspiration ran out revelation 22 21 it was done it was complete but here's the difference from the old testament to the new testament jesus brought about something that shocked people but it wasn't new because i remind you even in the book of acts you have the seven sons of skiva that were exorcists even the king james calls on that but when they accused jesus of casting out devils by the prince of devils he clearly looked at him in matthew chapter 12 and he said if i cast out devils by the prince of devils beelzebub then by whom do your children cast them out they had already been doing it it wasn't a new revelation that jesus showed up as an exorcist it was a new revelation that jesus showed up and it worked because it was his authority that pulled the devils out not just being some you know youtube exorcist or just getting a an ebay certificate on a wall saying that i can exercise demons dwayne two minutes can you repeat the repeat the question one more time for me so i can answer sure i'll do so and then i'll reset your time so the question i can't repeat it exactly it's not written down the question is uh it's there seems to be a pattern in the old testament that the miraculous signs and the gifts accompany some new revelation from god we see this in moses to the egyptians and the miraculous signs correct the prophets to god's people jesus so is there a new revelation is there new revelation today and if not uh these miraculous and signs with new revelation seem to be a change in pattern and where do we see that in the scripture i would agree the canon is closed there is no new revelation i would also counter what greg said that do we get words of wisdom from god and if you want to hear god's voice open your bible there's no other way god does not whisper he does not come in burning bushes anymore there is a time and a place for everything revelation is filled and if you receive a word from god get your pen and continue writing scripture that would be my answer okay we'll give him some opportunity to answer okay duane back to you this is a question two for you and and this has come up throughout the debate tonight uh but i think it's still a question that can be explored so it's estimated you know if we look in the new testament it mentions jesus casting out demons it's estimated 55 times his disciples also cast out demons even after his death though formerly different different uh even the reformer martin luther retained a ritual for exorcism in his baptismal liturgy we see it through church history by even reformed men has been brought up the bible doesn't specifically teach us that casting out demons will end or does it and if it does then please explain and if not why should we believe that's ended no you're correct it does not say it in and it does not say it continues it does not give any evidence for either or what it simply does is it gives a historical account of what jesus did now as far as what martin luther did he did some very respectful things but i mind you he was still catholic and i have not studied martin luther to go far enough into that so now what i will say is that there is a time and a place the reason there were so many deliverances within the historical books of the new testament was that jesus hit the scene the game changed the first team was in the rivals were at play and it was a battle for eternal souls when the foundation was laid was laid by the apostles as christ as the cornerstone yes the apostles still held that but if you do notice they did not put an emphasis on deliverance as they did in the um in the historical records can i say one thing yeah it's your time two minutes absolutely uh martin luther came out of the catholic church 1512 he put the 95 thesis on the castle in wittenberg and that was the whole point of the reformation he was not a catholic when he did this stuff he stood against the pope and the pope tried to kill him on a number of occasions and so that's what you have the protestant reformation of which by the way i'm not a protestant because i ain't protesting the catholic church because the pope's always been a demon okay and so i'm not interested in what catholic idolatry has to say about history but he was not a catholic he came out of catholicism because he read in the book of romans where it says we are justified by faith without the works of the law and so he knew the pope was uh nothing more than a false prophet at that point so the entire protestant reformation is built on a man that believed what i'm teaching and what i'm preaching tonight and so i suppose if i could get in a time machine we could go back and we could tell martin luther that he's a false prophet and he's not fit to be a pastor anymore either as well as augustine and calvin couldn't make up his mind calvin was a cessationist one day and not a cessation as to the other uh how he died i have absolutely no idea but there's not uh there's not a whole lot as to whether he believed it at the end of his life but he couldn't make up his mind but history is replete there's no stopping it okay the scripture doesn't have to say that it continues because the scripture does not say a lot of things continue that still continue the scripture never says make sure that you continually baptize people no we just continue to baptize people because it's commission and in that commission to baptize people he said cast out devils in my name it's the same commission you can't have it both ways you don't get to exclude one and emphasize the other you either emphasize both of them or neither of them and so the continuation is what we're supposed to be doing that's the whole point of discipleship all right pastor locke last question so you've mentioned it's come up a couple times in some of your messages even here tonight you've uh highlighted scriptures that talk about a spirit of fear spirit of infirmity uh and so these are definitely we see them within the new testament text and and through the scripture we also see jesus casting out demons and the apostles casting out demons are you making a category error to say that the same types of spirit of infirmity spirit of fear are the same types of demons that jesus was casting out were those the demons that jesus was casting out in the new testament absolutely absolutely the demons didn't go anywhere the same demons that jesus cast out are on this earth right now inside people and most church folks today if the demons haven't gone anywhere the same ones there's multitudes of them a myriad of which no man can number listen only a four only a third of them fail but you do realize that's a third of an innumerable amount as the sand of the sea and the stars of heaven so an innumerable amount and a third leaves it's still an enumerable there are more demons on the planet right now than there are human beings i can promise you that and that's why we wrestle not against flesh and blood but against principalities power spiritual wickedness in high places and so yeah it's the same spirit of infirmity it's the same spirit of divination nothing's changed and you'll notice he never talks about very few times i won't say never he he doesn't call it a uh a specific he generalizes like the girl that had a spirit of divination she didn't have the spirit of divination she had a spirit of divination because there's more than one there's a spirit of infirmity not the spirit of infirmity those spirits are still around they didn't go anywhere it's not like they died it's not like you know the pigs drowned them in the sea in mark chapter number five they came out and they went somewhere else matthew chapter 12 and 13 is very plain about that and so it's not a category era we deal with the same demons today that jesus dealt with and the same demons that people dealt with before that but there was no jesus jesus made the difference he made the categorical difference to give us power to every cast out demons and so we're still dealing with the same ones that we've always dealt with the devil's got the same kingdom there's no new angels created and there's no new demons created same angels same demons and we're still fighting them to this day the very ones that jesus ticked off are the very ones that we're taking off this very moment same ones no different okay brother charles same question to you same ones they're they're not being cast to hell they're not cast to hell until the perfect comes back we don't cast them to hell correct so you know no one can cast a demon to help so yeah i'd have to say correct you don't demons are here they're where they were casted to we walk among demons a lot of them i will agree there's no denial of that the denial and the basis of our two arguments is how we deal with them i say repentance and salvation is enough it is finished and that is what i say okay and uh the fifth question is different this is to each of you because i wanted it i didn't want to have uneven challenging questions about so uh this question though is um first to pastor locke where would you go to recommend people uh or where would you recommend people go to learn more about the things that you're teaching in your position the bible all right you walked into that one the bible ((music playing)) if i haven't proved that tonight then i haven't proven anything the bible there are some generals in the deliverance world there are people that are phds in greek that know more about the greek language than he and i both combined forgot more bible than i'll ever know derek prince a mighty general of deliverance one of the greatest baptist preachers ever win worldly look at windworldly he started the mass deliverance movement don basham some great people out there but i mean at the end of the day the word the word i don't see any place in this debate tonight it's not about who wins i don't care who wins the bible wins there's not been one spot in this debate tonight that any counter argument biblically has nullified one sentence that i've made from this platform tonight not one there's not been one verse that he's quoted that i don't believe not one we believe a lot of the same things we just come at it at a different way because like he said we both believe in demons that's how you deal with them we don't deal with them jesus deals with them it is finished it is finished positionally we've been delivered from the kingdom of darkness but practically we're still fighting hell by the acre every single day every single day duane same question i would agree the ultimate authority is always scripture there's no denial of that anything up beyond that as well that would be the ultimate foolishness wouldn't it but the other sites that i did a lot of my studying for this debate with and of course you should always lean on wiser men that have come before you they build these foundations and they build these and they build this work up so it can be used by future generations but i would also say always lean on men who cling to what is old who cling to what is traditional could clean not nothing nothing new because there is nothing new under the sun now jim osmond uh is one that i would definitely quote his series truth or territory um you can also get a downgraded version or his book truth or territory you can get a downgraded version of eight part video series uh from american gospel tv i think it's on youtube as well but it's called truth or territory um john mcarthur strings fire ligonier ministries sinclair ferguson has an on has an article answering the questions on whether or not christians should be casting out demons of course i used some words from paul washer tonight in my opening statement and joe beak the reformed systematic theology volume one and three those would be those would be uh my suggestions to go look at where i did my research and uh what i was leaning on can i say one thing about that okay sure is that okay with you bro i'm fine okay i mean there's he mentioned some great men of god but uh you gotta be careful sometimes when you cite certain people just because they sound good online and i like john mcarthur he's a real bad source for this particular debate he's in a lot of hot water right now for covering up sexual abuse in his church for 25 years i don't think i trust somebody that didn't believe victims so john mccarthy don't get to tell me about casting out devils because he should have cast out some deacons that he kept on his deacon board for a long time that were abusing women and raping kids in his church so let's just get that straight before we go any further okay all right let's thank our speakers tonight thank you all for attending and thanks those online who've been watching as well god bless you have a good have a good evening you