When a Marriage Is Dying: How God Restores What Feels Lost | The Unbound Podcast

what was going on in that season. >> I say things to Jake that I did not even know I was feeling cuz I wouldn't allow myself to admit how lonely I was, how hopeless I felt, how disconnected I felt from him. >> The very description of love that is in his word, I'm not doing any of them.

At the pinnacle of that, I told him that in my heart, we're divorced and you can go off and do whatever you want cuz we are not married anymore. And he looked at me and said, >> "Here we go." >> Well, I am excited to welcome the Hamilton family to the Unbound podcast.

And that's Jake and Nikki. So glad to have you with us. You know, we >> we've been on a on a on some trips together overseas. We we hung out a little bit, but I want I want you to talk about uh you and your family. Just tell us what the family makeup is. >> Well, um we have been married 23 years as of right now.

Um and we have three kids. We have a 21-year-old Geneva, 19year-old Ezra, and 17-year-old Judah. And we live up in Reading, California right now. So, >> all right. And >> talk about what you do. >> Yeah. Let's start with which part of what do I do? >> My favorite question because I never know how to answer it. >> All right. >> I mean, we've had so many different like jobs and really in ministry for a very, very long time.

We actually met church planting when we were like 20 years old. And we've been in every any part of ministry you can imagine. We've done it for, you know, two decades plus. And that is what kind of launched us into doing marriage and men's ministry that we do now called the fight.

And so we focus primarily on men because we know that as you know, if you can connect with the man's heart, get the man connected to the family, that changes the marriage, that changes the parenting, that changes the environment of the home. and actually transfers into legacy in the home.

So that's what we've been doing for about 10 years now. I think it's been like really official. We started it as one flesh and then that transitioned into the fight. And so that's what we've been doing is really hosting men, hosting conversations with men and um really helping them understand who they are and their their value in the midst of a home and in culture.

What would you say is the major challenge you see with men as you minister to them today? >> Loneliness. >> Loneliness. >> Loneliness. >> Talk about that a little bit. Tell me tell me about >> the loneliness of men today. >> Well, I think they feel very much like they're being sidelined by culture a little bit.

Like you can't do it right. And so even the best version of manhood or masculinity gets somehow twisted into something awful or evil or patriarchal or toxic or whatever the buzz word is. >> Toxic masculinity. >> Yeah. And so it's like this, it's just really when I'm dealing with men, whether they're men who are super successful in business or the dude who's working 60, 70 hours a week grinding it out in a trade job, they all feel very isolated and alone.

Not just from community, but even in their home because there's really no model of masculinity that's presented itself as healthy for long enough for them to go, "Oh, that's what I was looking for." And so they go home and feel alone. They feel alone with their kids. they feel alone at their job.

And really between isolation and identity, that's been the biggest sort of like thing we've had to confront when it comes to, hey man, like we're with you and let's do this together. And that invitation is gamechanging. Yeah. >> Well, I like this title, the fight, because I want to see if y'all have had any fights. >> So, okay.

During your little se seven or eight year when you were married, y'all >> had a period of disillusionment, >> right? Y'all were working through I don't I don't know if that's your word or my word or our word, but but Nikki, talk to me about what was going on in that season.

Well, I think I'd have to preface it by saying when I was in high school in a history class, and I was not a scholastic person, but this was a a marking moment for me. Uh, I read in a textbook that Mimi Eisenhower said, "Ike was my career."

And I don't know why in that moment I just felt this jolt reading that and it's like, "That's your destiny." Closed the book, never thought about it again. Fast forward, I don't know, maybe five or six years later, I'm dating Jake and he asked me to marry him.

We're engaged. We had a very short engagement and we're a couple weeks away from the wedding. Invitations are sent and I suddenly just got a little bit of cold feet and I thought, "Oh man, am I making the right decision? Is this the one? Is this the guy I'm supposed to to be with?"

You know? So, I go out. We at that time we were running this like youth church and it ended at 10:30 at night. Our services were >> literally at 8:00 at night. >> Yeah. It was all college students. So service is over on a Sunday night. I get home.

It must be 10:30 or 11. I'm like I just I'm going to go for a walk. I go for a walk and you know there's a few times in your life where you hear like the audible voice of the Lord. And I'm praying and I hear this audible voice of God say, "You are not marrying a man.

You're marrying a calling. And at that moment, that saying that I had heard Mimi Eisenhower say from high school that I hadn't thought again since that moment came back to my memory and I thought, "Oh my god, no, this is it. This is I'm supposed to marry this man."

So, we get married. And the thing is like about I think when you have like a God moment like that, it's there's just this magic and mystery around it and it sounds so fun and exciting until you're now married for seven years and we had three kids. My oldest one is severely disabled and my husband's calling is out on the road and I'm home alone and we're broke with three children who are very high maintenance and all of a sudden that word that felt so heroic feels crushing >> and um that's where I was and Jake was playing at the All State Arena He was he was a worship leader.

He had just gotten signed with Jesus Culture who was like a big label at the time. So he was kind of traveling all over the place leading worship and he was on the road and a lot and I was home alone a lot with the kids. And he had called and said, "Meet me out at the All State Arena.

There's like 15,000 people. He's going to be playing this worship set." So I fly out there at night. I hear him lead this amazing set of worship. And I remember sitting there. It's great because someone happened to capture this like awesome picture of me just like worshiping so I can really remember it because I have this picture that memorializes that moment and I'm just like crying out to God like ah this isn't what I expected.

This is not what I thought this was going to be. And watching him at the same time live out everything that I know he's supposed to be. you know, he if anyone's ever seen Jake lead worship or heard him speak, it's like, "Oh yeah, that guy is right where he belongs."

And there was a disconjointedness in our heart. So the next morning, I'll I'll fast forward. The next morning, we wake up and a pastor friend says, "Hey, let let me sit down and talk to you guys." So we meet at a restaurant downstairs and this guy is like real he was a real father type of guy and we sit down.

Right out the gate, he looks me straight in the eyes and he said, "Nikki, how are you doing?" >> And I lost it. I had I'm a very put together person. I most of the time, you know, I >> She's not the crier I am. >> I am not a crier.

I'm not highly emotional. >> And I lost it. And so thankfully, this guy was like, "Let me take you up to our my hotel room so we can talk." 4 hours later, I say things to Jake that I did not even know I was feeling cuz I wouldn't allow myself ever to admit how lonely I was, how um hopeless I felt, how disconnected I felt from him.

And at the pinnacle of that, I told him, "I'm not gonna divorce you, but I want you to know that in my heart, we're divorced and you can go off and do whatever you want. I free you to do whatever you want cuz we are not married anymore, but I'm not leaving, but we're I've completely divorced myself."

You emotionally left. Absolutely. I absolutely did. And after that, Jake loves to tell this part because after that 4hour meeting with this guy and me just annihilating him verbally, um, we go back to our hotel room and I fall fast asleep. I hit I get in that room and I immediately fall asleep. >> I'm like, "All right, let's all right next.

So, what's next?" And she's like, "And deal with the bag. >> A nap is what's next." >> Yeah. So, um, and then you might want to pick it up from there because, uh, that the pastor came up to you. >> Yeah. I mean, really what happened, I felt like it was my, I'd say, looking back, obviously, it's I looked back and this was like my first call into what I think is real manhood.

And he I'm sitting in the hallway. He had gone to another meeting. He had come back. I'm still sitting in the hallway cuz Nikki is still sleeping. And it's been a couple hours. And I'm just like, "What do I do? What do I do?" and he comes up and he goes, "Hey, I bet you're thinking one of two things.

One is give up your calling so that you can go focus on your family. Or the other is give up your family so that you can focus on what God's called you to do." He said, "Neither is right. A real man learns how to live in the tension of both and do them well and honor God." >> And I was like, I could feel it in my body.

I was like, "Oh, that's what a man this is what a man does." >> Like a man has to live in that tension, you know? Wow. We could be here all day. I can see that now. I can't because you're not just talking about it. You're emoting with it.

I mean, I can I can feel your words, not just not just hear your words. And >> a lot of couples enter into this space of disconnectedness >> uh while you're serving the Lord Jesus Christ. Okay? You're entering into this world where >> where you don't have a place in this.

Yeah. >> He's serving God and >> traveling and people are responding to him >> and you're home taking care of the daytoday grind of >> wifehood and children and brokenness and all the things. >> So during this disconnectedness with him, was there also disconnectedness with God? You know, that's so that's a tough question.

I think >> Oh, we're just getting started. Go ahead. >> Tough question number one. >> That at that time, um, we had just part of the story is we had planted a house of prayer pri right prior to him doing traveling full-time. So that house of prayer season I would say was one of uh it was one of the hardest most painful most growing seasons of my life right they always go together pain suffering growth they always go together and so I was you know in the midst of that and also coming out of this real prayer movement moment And I spent so my prayers at that time were God, let Jake see me.

Like can he just see me? Because I felt so unseen in that time. Um I think as a mom, you're often unseen. Not often, you're really unseen as a mother. Nobody sees the the 3:00 a.m. feedings, right? And then as a pastor's wife, you're really unseen because everyone really kind of wants to be you.

You know, you're married to the man and how you must have everything cuz he's Mr. Religious guy and you know, everyone sees all the good stuff and they So there I think there was also a little bit of feeling like everyone here secretly hates me and doesn't want me in the room.

So that took me to like my knees a lot going, God, I just want to be seen by my husband. I want um there's something about being seen in your pain. You don't need it to be taken away, but if someone can just see that you're suffering, right?

So that's like a very long winded way of saying that I was clinging on to Jesus like by my little fingernails, >> right? >> You know, this this idea of wrestling with God, I I'll use those words in our >> in our pain >> and the Bible is full of >> people who are wrestling with God >> because expectations are not being met. you you're hoping for one thing, expecting one thing, >> and then knowing you've heard from God, >> you know, you heard the this is a calling.

This is not >> because unless you know it's a calling, you may not stick it out. If it's just a if it's just a man, but but now you got to deal with God because >> God okayed this. And to see people in the Bible who had to wrestle with God and ask God tough questions.

I've often said it's not wrong to ask God questions. It's wrong to question God. And those are not the same thing. You know, to ask to ask why is one thing to challenge his why is a whole another thing. And this wrestling when the God of the Bible doesn't make sense to the circumstances that I'm I'm dealing with.

You know, I've I've gone through this wrestling season of of love and loss and what are you doing and why are you doing and why this why now? Why this much? Why does this have to hurt so bad so long? And so, so I'm hearing the wrestling that that you were going through, but at the same time, God is working because the pastor comes to you and and he he does a man thing on you.

He call he he does the Christian man up move on you, you know, and says, "Hey, you know," and that was classic. You know, one of the statements that's often made about marriage is marriage is not just designed to make you happy, but to make you holy, you know, to to to take you to the next level of spiritual development, which often means discomfort.

So, let's pick it up from there. You didn't heard from the pastor, you feel it. So, what's the response? What do you what do you do next? >> Yeah. Well, the invitation was to go home after that, which was very awkward cuz we had the band with us.

So, we'll just say that was an awkward drive and plane ride after that. And then um we get home and um I I'm very like I am the emotive one. So, I'm like just before the Lord every night. I'm like couldn't eat, couldn't sleep. I would love to call it a fast, but it wasn't it was just I didn't know what to do.

I was desperate. And I really felt like I heard that that like bleeding where the Lord's like, uh, you know, go read 1 Corinthians 13. And I was like, "Oh, yes. I know what it says." You know, and you kind of like, "Yeah, okay. Yeah, love." You know, and I'm like, "Yeah, I got it."

And I literally open it up and um I read love is patient. And he says, "If you don't have that one, you can't have the rest." And then it just basically hit me, well, if I'm not patient, then I'm not then I can't be kind because being kind takes patience.

So then it just like they started building on each other as I'm like laying there for basically 7 days. And what happened is I started to journal and dismantle my own marriage to go, "Oh, I'm none of these things. No wonder Nikki doesn't feel loved." Like the very description of love that is in his word.

I'm not doing any of them. Well, I mean, I'm doing like the outward like making sure I provide and I'm I'm protecting you and I'm I There was >> Well, you weren't doing too good at that cuz she said you were broke. Yeah, there was like Yeah. Oh, dude.

We didn't have a lot. I'll tell you that much. But we had a roof over our head. I took care of some stuff. But my but my thing was I was like, well, at this point I'm like, okay, there's nothing like here that I'm dealing with that I have to go wrestle with.

There was no there was nothing between us. There was no addictions. There was none of that. It was literally a workaholic that I got passed on from my father >> that was like, I'm going to work hard and there is I I'm going to grind this out. And I just took that straight into ministry. and everybody just applauds it. >> And that was actually really hard because I'm I'm getting applause when everybody knows how much I'm traveling, but nobody's asking me about my wife. >> Nobody's asking me about my kids.

They're just want the anointing or whatever the language is of the culture that you're a part of, >> right? >> And so we laid there, I laid there for about seven days going through these just these 16 attributes of love, you know, and Nikki comes home one night after being at dinner with a friend.

And um do you want to share that part? You were out with with your friend at dinner. >> Yeah. Yeah. So I I felt there's a place that I think some of us are gifted enough to go to where you can just, you know, shut off. You know, I'm really good at that. >> Mick is actually an expert at this.

It's as if you you were dead, but you didn't die. Like she just you just disappear off her radar completely. I don't know if anybody else has that spiritual gift, but my wife for sure had that spiritual gift. >> So, I had emotional I, you know, I had um just emotionally killed him. >> He was dead to me. >> I'm glad I'm glad you didn't have a knife in your head. >> It was felt.

It was very felt. >> Yeah. >> So, I was really just shut off. And I remember looking at him at the table. He kind of posted up at our kitchen table with his Bible and was just, you know, Mr. Sad and depressed. And at this point, I'm thinking, well, I got it all out.

I've made my decision. I'm staying and I'm going to be fine. And so I'm and I'm I've killed you emotionally, so you mean nothing to me anymore. And I'm great. Like what? So get it with the program. Like why? I really don't like you sitting at the table as Eeyore >> and moping around and like killing my vibe, you know? >> I'm like, so I was like, this is not fun anymore.

And the the truth is I loved him. I did. And there was a part of me that hated that I heard him. But I also didn't know how to tap back in to caring. Right? So there's this battle within me. So I I was at dinner with my friend and I was telling her this.

I'm like, I don't even know what to do. He's sitting there moping around and I'm just like, get with the program. Oh my god. Just has to flick that light switch back on if if I you know if this is going to work between the two of us.

So I go home and I'm like Jake are we going to talk about the elephant in the room? Like you cannot sit here like this anymore. We got to move on. And he looked at me crying and said, "I am so sorry that I have not loved you in these very specific ways that he named and I know why that's hurt you because of these very specific things in who you are."

And that broke something in me. And you know, I like to say that if this if we were making a movie about this, that would have been like the end and we would have all moved on happily from there. But the truth of it was that turned a light switch on that shed a huge light on all the problems, but at least we could see the problems, right?

And it began a really long journey that we're still on. >> Yeah. And that that was like because that moment offered cuz I could see it. And I think that's where I just I didn't know. I was so busy trying to be the version of masculinity that I had seen in my dad.

The version of what it meant to be a husband and a father in my own home. And my parents are still together today. I celebrated their 50th anniversary and all the family's together and it's great. But I I was literally just working from this operating system that was fracturing the very thing I would have told you I loved the most. >> But I had no I had no other grid for it.

And so when it came off the rails and was completely dismantled, I felt like I could pick I could see all the pieces and I could start to pick them up and start to build what I what I was like, "Oh, this is what marriage is supposed to be.

This is what family is supposed to look like. Oh my gosh. Nikki's never had a man in her life prefer her and choose her in that way. >> And I I I think in that moment, the big shift for me was I realized what a privilege it was going to be to do that for one woman for the rest of my life. >> Wow. >> And I was like, that choice I'm making like you don't ever have.

And I told her that that night, you don't ever have to like me again. >> Mhm. >> Actually, you don't have to trust me, but I will be the tide on which all the other men who have hurt you on which the tide of that pain will break.

It will it will end with me and I will choose you and prefer you for the rest of my life. And it sounds a lot better in this room when it's not as broken and messy at that time. But I knew it and I was like, "Oh, I'm going to choose her."

And it didn't mean I threw everything away. It was like, no, if God gave me, because I knew I was supposed to write music. I knew that like music was going to be a big part of who I was and what I do. And still to this day, no matter what I'm doing, it comes up.

But it's like I knew that I God would give us a strategy to work this out. And that was the night of invitation for us to do it. >> If I was back in the hood, I'd say, "You go, boy. You go." That's the way it felt. >> Now, now the a couple of things I'm hearing that kind of uh is illuminating in in our conversation thus far.

You're in this broken place. You know, there's a a Greek word for the word word. In the beginning was the word. That's the word logos, which is the the the expression of the truth of God. But then there's another word which is Rama which is a divine utterance.

It's kind of where the words written on the pages of the Bible leave the pages of the Bible and enter into your experience. >> So it becomes a word for you and not the just the word of truth. >> The Bible is true whether it hits you or not.

But when it does hit you, it becomes alive to you in your personal experience. So when you were describing uh when you were describing what happened at 1 Corinthians 13, you had a Rama experience with the word that was beyond just the logos recognition of the word and but it came in crisis.

The word of God became alive for you in the midst of your crisis. And what that brings to mind for marriage or anything else that breaks us is to allow the word of God to leave the pages of the Bible to address the pain that you're experiencing. So that now becomes God becomes realer >> in a sense >> because now you're experiencing his truth and not just memorizing it and knowing it.

And it came out of pain which which which brought this to the place where God was able to move it to the next level. So so bigger than just your crisis, there's a principle here of allowing God's word in our brokenness to reign supreme and to actually invite it to leave the page. >> Well, and I'm I'm so grateful like I mean God I didn't grow up in like a house that was reading the Bible every day.

I mean I didn't grow up in a house where we were like you know on our knees praying every day. It's like my dad, they my parents got saved when they were in fourth grade. All they were amazing people, all great and wonderful. Had their own brokenness and great.

But when I turned 19 and began to devote myself to the word of God because of the light, because of the path that I was put on, working with, you know, inner city kids in LA with Salvation Army and then accidentally planting a church and all these things.

I just knew that I had to be seeped in the word. And I grew up in this beautiful Baptist church right down the street from my house that I am insanely grateful for. And they gave me the word, the word, the word, the word. So I could have chosen a thousand other things to go to when my life fell apart. >> I mean, there's a lot of options, right?

You know what I'm saying? Even good options that are like, "Oh, that's okay. It's good. It's not unhealthy. It's not it's not going to go send you into drinking and drugs and pornography." But it's but I had a foundation to go to the word so it could become alive to me. >> And I'm like we're missing a lot of that for people to go my life is in crisis.

I'm going to run to social media. I'm going to run to the thing to escape. I'm going to run to the thing to comfort. I'm going to run. I'm going to run. I'm going to run. And I like really hadn't thought about it until you just said that that I was like, "Yeah, that is a real truth that like because of my root system, when my life fell apart, the word could become flesh in my body the same way it became flesh in the man Christ." >> The incarnational word of God in my life that bore fruit of the relationship we have now.

But that didn't come by accident. like that that was an intentional building that I think so many other people are missing in this hour where they don't have that to go in crisis I run to the word you know it um in John 11 when um Martha and Mary send the word to Jesus you're you know the one whom you love he's sick Jesus says he's not going to die but he dies and Martha comes to him and says if you would have been here Yeah, >> we we we wouldn't we wouldn't have this.

And she enters into a discussion with Jesus about theology and about the resurrection. >> He tells her, "I am the resurrection and the life." She she says, "Well, you know, I know about the resurre I know the theology." >> And Jesus says, "Well, no, I am the theology."

And what he was prepping her for was a miracle of resurrection. Well, Lazarus is raised from the dead. But the miracle resurrection only occurs because a crisis was allowed. >> Jesus stayed away >> until things got worse so that when he showed up, they could see something they had never seen before.

And a bunch of other people could see it, too. So God has allowed y'all to go through a crisis that he could speak into that you could be on this podcast and plenty other places to talk about a resurrection so other people whose marriages are dying can know that God still raises marriages from the dead >> and it's still the blind man on the road like whose fault is this moms?

Is it dad's? Whose is it? It's like no this is this has happened so that the glory of God can be revealed. And I'm like yeah that's the point like that is we're going to see the miracle. We're going to see the resurrection and we, you know, we have our stuff, but I'm like, we we have seen a res an actual resurrection in the midst of our relationship. >> So, God still raises the dead, huh? >> Yeah. >> I guess I this makes me think about just pain and suffering in in general.

You know, I have we have a child with special needs and there's a when you have a child born with a with a dis with a lifelong disability. There's something of a death that comes with that >> and it's a death that doesn't get a funeral. So you kind of carry it throughout the years and which I think was a large part even of us going through what we went through because there was this huge weight of suffering that we were carrying in between us and not knowing how to handle and that's an that's an entire other story.

All I say that only to say what I've learned from suffering is now the sadly you can suffer pointlessly and it and it actually comes out on the other side with no fruit no revelation that that's not a given right >> but what I have found in my own life is if you can press into it and the key press into it unoffended which is not easy to do at least it hasn't been easy for me to go like, I'm going to press into this pain, into this suffering, and over my dead body, I will not be offended at you, God.

You know, and I I mean that because there are days where I've had to say over my dead body, I will not be offended because everything in you wants to be offended. Everything in you wants to go, you know, this is the crazy thing about life. You know, you take this the story I'm telling you and it's like the dream of my life.

You know, I get this like little call in high school like you're going to be the woman behind the man and that's going to be so glorious. And and what I didn't say is my whole life the only thing I ever wanted to be was a mother. I mean that's that was that was it.

Beginning, middle, end. I just wanted to be a mother. The idea of getting married was like, "Oh yeah, I guess you kind of need a husband for that." You know, I that was not in the cards. I was just like, "That'll come, whatever." But that was the dream.

And and I feel like I hear this in a lot of people's story. It's it's the dream that gets destroyed or gets that that brings that suffering because it's like God puts this dream in your heart and it goes it's it's going to be close but it's not going to be the way you think it is.

And will you be offended in me? You know, will you be offended in me? In fact, I mean that's that's I think the question, right? That's one of the most profound questions we get in life. >> Yeah. And even our So we have that and then even when our marriage stuff went went the way it went at all state Arena.

I mean I was told when I was 18 years old our you know youth pastor said go write down a mission for your life a vision for your life. Go pray and write down a mission like a good youth pastor you know. And I was like yes sir you know I'm interning.

I'm like yeah. So I write down and I in this little Baptist church cubicle I felt with my whole heart and I had been playing guitar for six months at that time the Lord's like you're going to write the songs the whole world will sing. So then I'm standing in front of this arena, no joke, prior to this thing that goes down with our marriage.

The very night before, I'm singing this song that I wrote in a tiny room with four people in the middle of a prayer meeting. And everyone's singing it back to me. They're just screaming this song from different nations, different backgrounds, different languages. It's been recorded now into several languages.

And at that time, it had been already in three languages. And I'm sitting there and I'm like, "This is the thing the Lord told me at 18." And then the next morning, the story we shared with you. >> Oh, wow. >> And he said, "Which one do you want?" >> And again, not like that Isaac moment of like going, "Yeah, I'm going to give it to you, but it's not the way you think." >> It's not the way you planned and prepped and prepared for greater things have I for you.

But that means you have to let go of the low-level things you can think about. >> So let's talk about uh how should I call it? The idolatry of ministry. >> No, that's not his thing. >> Let's talk about American idols. You know, the idolatry of ministry because >> ministry can destroy marriage. >> Yeah. while you're serving the Lord.

You know, when when I was coming along, we were building a church, started with 10 people in a house and >> a lot of visions and dreams and you know, growth and people because you never if you don't run out of people, you don't run out of problems, needs, ministry, >> it's go and and there is a adrenaline rush >> that comes with it. the the anticipation, the excitement, and the challenge even with the problems of building, >> you know, and and one thing that's typically true of men, building something, you know, and so you're you're doing that, but then it becomes becomes allconsuming because I had to apologize for that.

So uh uh that it becomes allconsuming because you can always give what seems like a legitimate reason for what you're doing and why you're doing it cuz you're doing it in the name of God. >> And if you're doing it in the name of God, it becomes legitimate. >> And you should understand that.

You should be patient with that, you know. And and this thing of what the pastor told you of doing both well, you know, and having things in their proper alignment is critical because many people in ministry as as is true in business as well, but in ministry because that's an easy one to excuse >> uh can can be very devastating to a marriage and to a mate.

Did you ever feel, Nikki, that he loved God inappropriately more than you or or in the name of ministry more than you? >> I think that was uh well, it's a loaded question. >> No, no, no, no. She's fine. We're just getting started. >> Here's the thing. You know, I I hear this audible voice of the Lord like, you're marrying you're not marrying a man, you're marrying a calling, right?

And I looked at what he was doing and the lives he was affecting and it felt like, wow, you know, like this, they need him out there. And I got before I knew what I was signing up for. You know, these are the stories I'm telling myself as I'm at home at 3:00 in the morning with my, you know, my child who's just got diagnosed that she'll never walk and I'm pregnant and, you know, he's never home and I'm all alone and and I'm this I'm telling myself like, you knew what you signed up for and it's happening like he's really doing amazing things are happening in our midst and God is moving So that's a struggle to know what to do because if I say, well, twofold.

You know what? If I call him up and I say, Jake, like, I'm I'm dying over here. Like, I need you just to come home. Can you not do that prayer meeting tonight? Number one, I'm letting God down. >> Mhm. >> And I what? I'm just not strong enough.

And number two, there's also this feeling that everyone around who hears that his little wifey who's sitting up in her ivory tower needs him home. There's going to be a lot of judgment about that and I'm going to look weak >> if you know. So you catch 22, >> right?

So you're really battling it out. And as a pastor's wife, I'm like, you're alone. It it is lonely out there. Nobody cares that you know your husband's not home when they're when you know he's out ministering to 500, right? It's like don't you see the bigger cause? Like get over yourself. >> We've been and I think that was a massive piece for what we experienced when we first went through what we went through because we were trying to figure out that tension.

So of course we kind of did some gatherings. We played at some churches. We I I did some preaching and we'd go backstage into the green room and people would be like, "Hey Jake, it's so good to have you guys. so glad your family's here. Awesome. How are you guys doing?

And we're like, man, it is terrible. Our marriage is falling apart. We're not even sure we like each other. It's kind of crazy right now, but we're really glad to be here. And people were like, at first they're like, um, we might have made a mistake, but and we thought that's what they were thinking, but what really came out of it was every place we went without fail, they would go, "Hey, can we talk to you afterwards?

We're kind of going through the same thing." Mhm. >> And we were like, >> "Oh, >> this isn't an US problem, >> right? >> This is a cultural systemic problem when it comes to how ministry is functioning and the silence of the struggles of the families that are attempting to to do this.

Well, I really believe that with my whole heart. These are God-loving people who really do want to do well. And I I've never met a man I've never never met a man I'm sure you haven't either who's like, "Hey, I'm really man I'm really struggling at my marriage.

It's terrible. My wife hates me. I feel pretty good about it." You know what I mean? Like there's no man who said, "I feel like a terrible father. Don't know my kids very well. They don't like me. Feeling really great today. Like feel really good about that." No man ever.

And nobody walks down the aisle and is like, "Man, I can't wait for this to end poorly in in in court. Can't wait." No. There's hopes. There's dreams. There's there's these aspirations and expectations that just get just crushed over time, I think somewhat by the need that's so present in people's lives.

And because we have such a sort of a fundamental deconstruction of family and culture, the closest the closest thing they can find is either they're going to find a pastor or they're going to find somebody in government and they're going to be like, I'm going to throw all that weight on them and hopefully it works out >> well.

This pain, brokenness creates unique ministry opportunities. At the same time we talk about all these problems which are very real. They you know um the author of Hebrews says in chapter 12 that God shakes things to reveal things. >> And so he will make he will create or allow a disturbance in order that the eternal it says the spiritual will kind of leave the background and come to the foreground.

And so when people like marriages are in crisis and they're able to find their way through with the Lord, then the new ministry door is open for so many other people who are who are not the lone r you're not the lone ranger because now there's a whole group of people out there.

You know, I my situation is is very unique in the sense that um my current wife Carla lost her husband on their way to my wife's funeral. So they were on were on their way to my wife's funeral and he suddenly dies of a heart attack and um a year and a half later that led leads us to bumping into each other at a meeting and you have two broken people from major massive losses >> that have come together.

And how God do you want to use this unique situation for your glory and your and your kingdom and mutual support in that process because you're both coming from similar things. So how does God getting people to ask the question to the Lord? How do you want to use my pain, my brokenness, this these set of circumstances to bring the spiritual forth?

Because we couldn't we can't control life or death. You made a decision that we didn't particularly like appreciate and certainly would not have agreed with it. Absolutely. And prayed for the opposite. You know, believe for the opposite. Uh fasted for the opposite. And you said something else. >> Then what else do you have in mind that you want this season to be used for?

For your glory and your kingdom. because right now it's it's there's a lot of fog out there uh because you're working through something. So in your working through yours there's a lot of vulnerability that had to take place. You had to first of all you had to take four hours to you know when when I get with a couple who's struggling.

One of the thing assignments I give the men is to give the lady over one month one hour each week to vomit. It's good >> to to throw it all up. And the reason for that is number one, >> vomit is nasty, but you typically feel better after you've done it. >> Come on. >> Number two is that if she knows she has this venting time, you don't have to be nagged all week long.

So, so, so we we give that period of time so that she can she can release it, which creates space for something new cuz she's not fully carrying something old. So, so that that's vulnerability. So, you uh you took four hours and you you crammed my four weeks into four hours and you laid it out, but then you came back and you had to admit failure. >> Yeah. as a man, which is not an easy thing for a man to do, to weep and say, "I failed you."

So, talk about the vulnerability in the midst of pain to the healing process. >> We call it uh I know we're not the only ones, but we call it story work. And what happened was is a few weeks later um for us, we it was our anniversary. And so, we had kind of gotten to like a stable place and we were kind of like, what are we going to do?

And we lived, you know, three hours from uh from a city and we're like, let's just let's just drive. We'll drive it and let's just talk. And so we spent three hours one way hanging out for a couple days. And the 3 hours back just asking every question we could ask each other.

And I'm And now most people are like, yeah, like really deep. And I was like, what was your favorite cereal growing up? Why was that your favorite cereal? When did you first have it? Did you remember having like when like did your mom buy it for you? like how did that work?

And we just started making this safe place >> for us to ask questions about how we got to where we were. And some people want to jump right into the deep end of the pool, but you don't know how to swim yet. >> So, it's like we were just relearning how to dialogue and relearning how to ask safe questions and get healthy responses and write responses that would lead to, we call it curious questions.

And we're like, if we could get to a place where we could get couples and we could get ourselves to just ask curious questions, which we do still to this day now, it's just a part of our life. Like now it's like, what made you think that? How did you feel?

How did that make you feel? Like, you know, and we'll dive into tons of stuff. I'm That's the best part about doing this is I still get to learn new stuff about Nikki even 23 years in by doing this. And that has led creating safety in the small questions has led us to much greater degrees of safety and vulnerability in the bigger questions.

And so yes, there's been pain, but I think there's been enough research done at this point to say, yes, there we need a degree of conflict resolution. That's good. But actually tools for connection produce better health long term in the relationship. And we didn't have any of those studies at the time.

It's not like we did it because we read the book. We literally showed up and we took a 3-hour drive and we asked a ton of questions. I mean, to me, I feel like that was one of the most significant moments we had had up till that point. >> So, you actually went on a discovery journey. >> We just discovering each other deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper.

And I suspect that the deeper you discovered each other, the deeper the love relationship emerged because you you are what first Peter 3:7, you're dwelling with her at a whole another degree of knowledge, >> you know, >> and it was like curiosity led to vulnerability which leads to intimacy.

And that to me was like we watched it play out. And when we get into conflict, it's because we're not being curious about the thing that's causing us pain or disconnection. If we just see every disconnection as an opportunity to express vulnerability and curiosity, we could get to stuff a lot faster.

Now, do we always do that? God, no. You know what I mean? Like I I wish we did. But but we can that was the way that it started for us was to learn those tools together, you know? >> Well, I think the most beautiful thing about that journey was Yeah.

We started off with these really silly questions about cereal and like tell me, you know, >> Christmas gifts. >> Yeah. Things like that. But it began once you develop that safety of like, oh, we can have these type of conversations and and go and it goes well at a very base level, it progressively got deeper and deeper and deeper into our story.

And as we sunk down into the real meaningful questions, I mean, I think for both of us, and I'll speak for myself, I begin to realize, I mean, one of the most profound things I realized, which is pretty probably obvious to anyone looking from the outside, but wasn't to me, was, "Oh, geez, I've been making you pay the price for every man that's ever hurt me.

You are paying the price for the fact my dad was never there." And I would never have been able to realize that if we hadn't slowly walked this road of understanding one another and understanding ourselves. Because as you tell those stories, not only am I getting to he getting to understand me, I'm getting to understand me because I didn't real I didn't realize I was doing that.

I didn't realize, oh wow, no, I have a lot of hurt in this area that I, again, I'm very good at compartmentalizing and shutting off. So, I was like, I've shut the door to that room. And as we spoke, we were opening up the doors to each other's the rooms of our hearts, right?

And which also leads to now when we get in a little spout or if you know, it's frustrating to me that he doesn't always clean his glass and put it immediately in the dishwasher. As I begin to understand his young story, I go, "Oo, I know exactly why you don't do that."

And actually, me reminding you to do that is actually poking a wound inside of you that stems real deep and has nothing to do with the cup. Right? So that journey is really what led us into the work we do with the fight, the work we do with marriage, because it's like we begin to see, oh, there's very simple tools that if you can introduce couples to, there's small inlets to each other's hearts that we're just missing. >> Well, I am sure that a lot of couples uh who who hear this story will discover we we can fight but differently, >> right?

I thought for sure a different kind of fight right fight right fight right fight right fight right fight right fight right fight right fight right fight right fight you know uh continue with this idea of the idol idolatry of ministry >> uh what shifted what had to shift what didn't shift how did you renegotiate uh this this ministry reality in light of the problems you were trying to resolve and fix >> so one of the most frustrating things to come out of the conversation I know what you're going to say >> I know you I know you do so we're literally in the midst of this conversation where the marriage just falling apart with this pastor and, you know, this father figure.

And he he looks at me and he goes, "So, what is it you really want? Like, what is like your big dream here for your family?" I'm like, "I want us to be doing ministry together on the road together. I want to do this all of us." And he just looks at me across the room and just goes, "You are so selfish.

You are still making this about you and your thing." She just said this is painful for her and you're going to default to your biggest dream is to then drag her with you. Dude, you got some stuff to work out. And I was like, "Oh my god, he's right."

I was like, "Well, my dream died. I don't know what to make my new dream cuz it's all dead now. It's, you know," and I realized like, "Okay, we had to renegotiate. Hey, this is how we make a living right now. We have some room. We had some savings.

We had some gifts. And we were we were okay. So we took 6 months. I think originally we took four to 6 months off. Yeah. Something like that. >> Yeah. It's kind of a blur now. >> Yeah. I know. It was like we took we had enough to go, hey, let's take a little bit of time off.

Give us some reprieve just to spend time together developing, especially once things after started getting a little bit like, oh, we're we're having some deep conversations. And um but eventually I'm like um we need to I need to probably take some of these invitations. Like I'm going to go do this one.

I I feel like I should say, you know, I didn't feel safe in his ministry world. >> I had, you know, three young three young very active children and one with special needs and zero help. And so if I was at we were at a meeting together and we are in one car and I've got three crying babies and he's got a long line of people that he needs to be praying for.

I will be standing there with my three babies crying, feeling like I'm a terrible mother. Well, he has to finish the prayer line, right? That doesn't as a mom that does not feel safe. So the idea of doing anything in ministry with him was like I'm not I'm not doing that.

I the more kids we had the more I backed off because it was like this is not a safe space for me. Right. So I think that's where I was coming from and saying like I'm not doing the ministry thing with you. It is not safe for me because I don't feel seen here. >> Yeah.

So that's >> and that was the context and what we what we ended up doing is going like hey I've got it and I don't remember the details because it has been so long but this is what I know is that eventually it was like hey we've got this invitation do you want to come and she we had been doing a lot of work and we had some time off was a yes and then it was a yes again and then it was like Nikki you have to the ones that are significant like you have to see Europe you have to see it we have to take the kids and my daughter since she was five like wanted to go to Paris.

It was like she's she's she she's uh you know special needs doesn't communicate a ton in the sense of like her own wants. You know, usually it's very simple things, but um it was Paris. I want to go. And I was like, as a dad, I was like, I think I can make this happen.

I think I might be able to figure this out. And it was like a a lot of negotiation, a lot of figuring out what does this look like? and um and we make it all the way to Paris. My daughter's there. She's not good at expressing emotion, but my middle son, he is very good at expressing emotion.

I'm not sure where he gets it from, but we'll we'll explore that later at another time. But he she can't express how excited she is. And my son lays in her lap, just so just sobs and sobs. And we're in this little taxi while this is happening. And she he's carrying all this emotion that she can't carry.

And I was like, "God, you let my my dream of what I thought I would look like die so that you could give me something better. You know, I'm here. It's my whole family's here. We've traveled the world together now." And he's like, "If you just let me do it my way, it's going to be so much better." >> But it was like so insanely painful.

But to see it get resurrected in the way that it did and now we're all here even here you know my kids are here and it's like we do this now like it became very normal. It's very natural for us to go like you know oh what are we going to do?

What are we we're navigating it together. It's a whole new season and a whole new world because of what we do. But it's it's now negotiation. We've created a dialogue. I mean please if that's not true please I am like very much like we c certain things we have to do because of work but at the end of the day we have a deeper connection so there's a greater degree of safety in the relationship to navigateate those with more honesty and vulnerability. >> So does that mean you're now even freer to ministry >> freer to do ministry because you're doing it the right way? >> It it's not even the it's Yeah.

I mean, maybe it's the right way, but I I guess the way I feel is like it's our way. >> And I just hope others have enough freedom and honesty and vulnerability and willing to walk through the pain of their circumstances to find their way as well, you know. >> Oh, the word you use a great word.

You use the word freedom. >> Yeah. >> You know, the that's a big word in culture and American society. Uh >> but the first use of the word freedom is actually by God. from every tree of the garden you may freely eat. But of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, you don't eat it unless you die.

So freedom was in God's use of the word the liberty to enjoy his goodness within the restriction that he gave. >> That's it. >> And marriage creates a restriction >> that if you ignore it, you can't enjoy all the other fruits that are are there to be enjoyed within the context.

So, >> right. >> So, the proper understanding because you're now free to minister and enjoy the process. >> Well, because I'm now more me because she exists. >> Her her expression of limitation and boundaries and hurt gave me limitations exactly like you're saying, but they didn't limit me from being me.

They took away the versions of me and my ego that had nothing to do with God and helped hone me and harness me into the man that I was always meant to be in alignment with her. So, I become more of the man I was created to be and she becomes more of the woman she was created to be by us creating these boundaries, by creating this space to go, "Hey, when you do that, it hurts me."

Well, that's not just simply me telling you a part of my story. That's me expressing that part of you probably hurts other people as well and it's probably doing damage to you. >> You've taken the concept of helpmate to a whole another level. >> He helps me to be me. >> That's exactly it.

You know what I mean? Like I I joke about I mean I don't joke about it but I'm like it to me I go at the end of the day you have Jesus who essentially for all express and purposes is crucified by his bride. He says, "Forgive her."

Because he knows that when he dies for the sake of his bride, even unjustly, whatever it is, when for the sake of his bride coming into her fullness, the husband gets everything he wanted in the first place. >> Great theological correlary there. Great theological. >> And that for me is like if I if this doesn't have to be right or wrong.

I'm choosing to die, not for me anymore, but for the sake of you becoming who you were meant to be. Because as you become that and have more of an expression of the authentic version that Christ ordained from you before you were ever born, I end up with everything I ever desired anyway, regardless of how far it takes me or how much it costs me. >> So your process really uh exemplified Ephesians 5. >> That's it. where the husband is dying, you know, love like Christ loved the church.

He loved it to death. >> So your d your death which allowed her to live which brought back new life for you. So this this never ending circle of benefit and blessing accused. Now talk to me about how it accrews to your children. How how has this blessed and benefited them?

You know, I we're still in the We have teenagers. >> I don't know if anybody else has any other teenagers, but >> congratulations on >> Yeah. No, even even what you were saying, I think just to finish that a little bit, how that's worked is, you know, you were saying how, you know, how did I feel about the ministry?

And how I felt prior to this was I I can't say a thing. You know, he'd ask me, you know, he would want my input. Can I should I do this? Should I not? There was no intuition in me because I was so shut down in fear and not feeling kind of safe.

I didn't want to be, you know, like I said, I didn't want to be the wife that wasn't letting her husband do something and I didn't want to be the child of God that held him back from what God called him to do. And as we walked through this process and uh we became connected really a lot of the practical things that Jake be to do.

I I don't know. I don't think you did this thought like, "Oh, this is how I'm going to do it." But it just sort of manifested was he really started to see me that prayer that I prayed. He started to see me and came to me in a different way.

Like, I know I, you know, I got invited to do this, but I'm looking at the situation at home right now and it's not a good idea. I'm going to stay with you instead. or there was a line of 10 people and he heard the baby cry and he shut it down and said >> and we had and we had Geneva we we came up with a a signal.

Geneva still does it to this day. >> So we said you know when the line gets too long or you're like hey I'm done. I need dad I need to go to rest. I just want you to look. You don't have to say anything. I just want you to go like this. >> Like she's tired and yawning. >> She's tired and yawning.

And I said the moment I see that >> we're done. >> Time to cut and shut it down. >> Hey guys. Bless you. And so the more so he began to do that. And really it got to the point where he was coming home more than he was going out.

And he was seeing me in whatever the situation was. And I just started feeling like, whoa, like you will always choose me. And every time I felt him choose me, there was this place inside of me that my intuition, my knowing about what he actually was supposed to do grew to where then I would feel like, oh no, this is an event you're supposed to be at, or this is a person you're supposed to connect with, or this is a direction you're supposed to take your ministry in.

And I felt the confidence to say it because I knew I was safe with him. And I knew that he was it was coming out of love, not out of I want to manipulate you or I just need you to be okay. I mean, I think every woman can relate to feeling like or especially past like I'm just a ball in the air you're juggling.

And I didn't feel that any anymore. And as I stopped feeling that way, I started feeling direction for him. I started going like, "Oh, no. I know. I know what you're supposed to do." And I feel that I can speak into it. So, the two become one, right?

Like, it wasn't Jake's ministry. It's not Jake's life. It's our life. And I'm not up there on stage and I'm not doing those things. But there is h there's half of our the who we are up there and half of us at home. And I think we can be more alignment in more in alignment with what God's will is for our life now because we work together. >> So if you were going to give a word of challenge to a couple or in the wrong fight >> and they want to get into the right fight because they're going through similar kind of realities that you've described.

What would be your word of challenge? Yours and yours. >> My word of challenge to men every single time is I say, "Men, you have to go first." And we've made in culture, men have gone first in systems and structures, but in the kingdom, men go first in service and sacrifice.

So, what I want you to do is put your needs and wants on hold. Not your provision, not your providing, not the taking care, not protecting, not the things you do for the home, but when it comes to you getting your way in the relationship, I want you to shove that for 6 months.

And I want you to explore your wife's heart. It's all I want you to do. You're going to you're going to make her mad. You're going to be in frustrating situations, but I want you and we will even give them lists of questions. And cool part is now like you can go on Amazon and download question conversation starters for couples.

Even those simple things to go I just want you to get to know her. That is step one. You're not going to get what you want out of it. It's not going to work out for you for a season. But if you invest in this way over the long term, you're going to you're going to end up with everything you ever wanted.

But you need to go I mean there's this whole thing you know even on social media like go dark for 6 months go dark for a year and then come back you know I'm like this is what we're this is real like if you do this in your marriage like it will transform the safety and vulnerability of your wife which will transform the connection that you have with her the intimacy you have with her the language you guys share and the life that you're building and so that kind of I feel like that would be my challenge usually men you have to go First, what would you say? >> Well, I think if I was talking to a married woman, I would tell her, you know, get on your knees cuz I I do feel that prayer does change things.

It takes a long time sometimes, but it does change things. And a lot of times that prayer needs to be change me. And don't like I said, you know, don't don't get offended. And if I was speaking to a woman who was on that verge of divorce, I think what kept No, I know what kept me going like, I will divorce you in my heart, but I will not leave you was I knew there was no man who would ever love my children the way he did. >> And as women, we're mothers, you know, we just are.

You're just a mom. And if you can not stand up for yourself, you can always stand up for your kids. You can always fight for your kids. And I knew coming from a divorced home, I knew that I couldn't take him away from my kids. And him living in the house down the street is not even when he's traveling all the time, you know, is not the same as him coming home when he does. >> Well, thank you.

You have made this a very memorable moment for us and for others and I am excited to see what the next stages are and your youthfulness coming out of what you've come out of for the benefit of so many other couples who who are where you've been and who can get where you are because of your impact in teaching them how to fight.

So, thank you. >> Thank you.