Legalism, Burnout, and Breakthrough | Francis Chan & Ken Murphy

I think it's pretty crazy that I ran into that guy in New Zealand, Michael. Yes. This How long ago was that? Like a year ago. I'm in New Zealand. Just got done speaking and met the airport. Someone calls my name. I don't recognize him and he goes, "I went to seminary with you."

And I go, "Oh, shoot." You know, I just don't like to run into people from seminary because I two reasons. One, I feel like that was the worst version of me. Um secondly, all sorts of things have been said about me since I've been to seminary and it's like, "Oh, what does this guy think of me?"

Anyways, he brings up "Ken Murphy was just out here." And honestly, there was a part of me again where half of me is like, "Oh, Ken. That was like the one guy I liked in seminary." And then there's the other side of like, "Oh, shoot. What does he think of me now?"

You know, because there's just been so much drama over there and um I don't know. Just feel so misrepresented. Um but anyways, I got your number, called you, and I don't think it was coincidence. I feel like when we got together and you told me your story, I was like blown away cuz it felt like God took us down these kind of similar paths and everything else.

So, that's why I wanted I just wanted other people to hear your story. Um but before we even get into that, I was curious on the plane over here. I was thinking, "What do I want to ask Ken?" I'm curious like what do you remember about me in those days?

Honestly, you can say good, bad, whatever. I'm just curious. At seminary? Yes, during those years. Let's say we never talked again. You had those 3 years with Francis Chan >> Sure. as a 21- to 24-year-old. Sure. And then I'm gone. Well, I'll give you my my fun Okay. >> memories >> and then and then a a real serious one. >> Okay.

You can do bad things, too. Okay. Good Anything. I just I think it's funny. Yeah, it's really. Just like go for it. I cuz I'm actually curious. Okay. Well, really? Well, I think what one of my my memories was just, you know, your your instant joy. You know, as I met you, there was this joy, but uh you were different than most the guys there.

Thank you. >> Thank you. Yeah, and if you if you look at maybe an academic, you know, mind, something like that, you you kind of came in and there was just a a real fun spirit about you. So, I do remember that. Um I remember that, you know, you fell asleep every day in class.

You you There'd always be a squiggly line and Yes. And That was right before laptops. We had to write. Uh it was usually cuz you're up surfing the night before and you were always tired, but I I think what stood out though is I I just remember in Don McDougall's class, he was asking questions and the night before you had like a little revival at your youth group.

You preached the gospel and there were so many kids coming to receive Christ that there weren't enough people. And I just I I remember your passion for the gospel and I I just I knew there was an anointing that God was going to call you to a mighty ministry in the gospel and it it so stood out with me that I just I I I love that part.

Uh the part that I remember also is like me and Laura, my wife, we got a a card for Christmas. Uh-huh. And you weren't married yet and you were on a beach with these two blonde girls. And it says, "Merry Christmas from Francis Chan." And me and Laura are like "What is this?"

So, I I text you. I said, "Who are these girls?" And you said they were walking by and I just asked if they'd be in my Christmas picture. No, they were at the college. This was This was so It was the beach. Yeah, I don't know. I'll I'll find the card. >> No, it wasn't It wasn't that bad.

So, you know, I knew them. >> It was funny cuz me and my friend, Joel, we just had these two girls from the college and we had them We just took pictures of ourselves with these girls to send to old girlfriends from back home saying, "Merry Christmas. Missing you."

So, so I sent one to you after >> Yeah, that was sweet of you. Thank you. Thank you. Thinking of you. >> But yeah, so your your humor was refreshing. It probably kept me sane. You know, we laughed so much that it it it helped me get through seminary.

So, I always loved that about you, your your heart and your spirit. Yeah. But that that gifting for the gospel was unique. And I I I love that you're still treasuring it and still preaching it anywhere and everywhere you can. Yeah. Well, good. I mean I'm glad you remember good things.

But honestly, those were the worst years of my life. And there was a lot of hypocrisy in my life and there was hidden sin. There was I mean, it was just a mess. And so, I was just I was more just curious, huh? Did I hide that well?

You did. >> And I did hide it well. Um which is sad. Yeah. Uh I didn't know those parts. Yeah. It was a It was a bad season. Um I don't know. It was weird like I I always tell people if I could redo a season of my life, it would have been that Bible college seminary years.

They were the worst worst of my entire 57 years of life. So, but what I remember you was um basketball. You you were better than me. You were a lot better than me. Yeah, and you've come a long way to admit that. I Yeah, you just dominate, but we'd go and we'd play.

I remember that. I remember some jokes that we can't tell um while the cameras are going. We were working through our sanctification at that time. It wasn't that bad. It was just Yeah. We were growing. >> over the line. Um and I remember how hard you and your buddy, Russ, were working because because when we first started seminary, I mean, we took We had every class together. >> Yeah.

And so, you know, we'd get our tests back in the beginning and I would ace everything cuz I was right out of college and you know, just have some racial advantage. I mean, I was just acing stuff and I'd look at you guys's and you guys had been studying all night and I'd have higher grades and And doing the same. you know, I didn't really study.

I just knew how to take tests. Yeah. Um but I just remember how by the end like you and Russ really knew what you were talking about. Um you actually knew the stuff and your grades were better and you guys graduated with honors and I didn't. And I felt guilty about that for years.

I'm like, "Lord, what a failure. I got worse grades than Russ and Ken." Yeah, I seriously >> it it haunted me for It literally did. It was like, "I failed. I failed." But anyways, that's what I remember with you. That was good. But I I'm curious after seminary, I know that you went out, planted a church, um but then things kind of took a I don't know if it took a turn or if it was just like this trajectory you were on because you were wrestling with the lordship of Christ.

Um just being uncertain whether or not he really was the Lord of your life, which is what I was wrestling with. I didn't tell anyone, but I remember distinctly in college just someone saying, "Do any of us know if we're going to heaven?" Um we don't know if he's Lord of our lives.

We won't know till we die. And I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. You're Yeah." So, that's the way we were as college students. Then in seminary, for me, it just kept going down that road and then my failure and even my grades of, you know, not graduating with honors, it's like, "And you guys graduated with honors.

Oh, shoot. I'm failing. He must not be Lord of my life. There's sin in my life. He must not be Lord." And I just started working at it, you know, just trying to be as pure as I could so that I could be accepted by him, which is the opposite of the gospel, but it sounded so right.

Mhm. It sounded so religious and pious and godly. Um but you kind of went through a similar, maybe even more so. I I'd love if you explain the way you because when you shared some of it with me, I was like, "Oh my gosh, I'm not alone." And then the more we talked to people, we realized we're really not alone.

Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I I I do appreciate that first meeting that we had in when we re got back together. >> at the coffee shop. >> Yeah. For me, when when I got saved, it was in 1987 at a Billy Graham crusade. And so, I was just shot out of a cannon and the the love of God had so overwhelmed me Mhm. that I just all I could do was preach and share and tell everybody and it you know, I I would skip classes to go read my Bible on campus and it I just had such a relationship with Christ like I just filled with joy.

Wow. And so right away, you know, I got my dream job and I I felt like I was stealing because I just was so on fire to share the gospel with everyone. And so I took off to seminary Mhm. I I took in so much truth and so much doctrine and and I I was just loving it and loving it, but I didn't understand Romans 7, you know, the good that I want to do I don't, the things I hate I keep doing.

So I'm beginning to grow in this knowledge of God and my practice isn't growing to the same degree because I mean, I was trying to graduate in 2 years. So I was taking 27 credits. I'm studying all the time. I'm not meditating on what I'm learning. It's You hear great truths, you go to the next class.

So that there's this chasm growing. But there's this new heart that wanted to please God so bad. And I just kept seeking to I wanted lordship. I wanted complete surrender and and I don't I think I heard it wrong, but what I was interpreting is that I had to change my life this much so that I could rest in Christ.

And so I'm just trying and trying and trying. My theology was so good. I knew that was wrong, but in my conscience and heart, that's what I was doing. And so it just kept getting bigger and bigger and bigger. And then when we planted that church, um there was a real as God had three attributes, sovereignty, holiness, and wrath.

And we and there was a just a a really a de-emphasis on Jesus Christ. So there's this really good high preaching, so it just kept growing the chasm. And and so I'm sitting here just I almost felt like Martin Luther when when he asked, it says, "What do you want, Martin?"

And he said, "I want a God who I can love and who loves me." And I all I wanted was to get back to that love that I knew at the beginning and to just love him. Yeah. But I knew so much that I I just I felt like I I I'm not surrendered and I just kept trying and trying and no matter what I tried, I I just was getting It was like Bunyan, you know, sweeping up that dust and trying to clean your heart and I'm choking on it as I'm trying to clean up my life.

So I I went into about a 5 10-year battle with just fighting to to gain assurance and and know his love again. Wow. And so that was that was a dark time. And I I think when we met, Yeah. that was what happened. It's You you told me though, I mean, it it got Did Did you say you went to the hospital? >> Yeah, I lost 40 lb.

I became allergic to everything. I I could eat eggs. That was it. And so that the stress of it was just overwhelming me. Wow. And so I mean, it was it was intense. Because you weren't sure that God loved you. >> Yeah, I'll give you one example. I wanted to come one Sunday and worship God and not have my mind drift.

And I would get up earlier each Sunday, drink my coffee at 3:00 in the morning, read the Psalms for 3 4 hours to get my mind ready, come to worship, and my mind would drift. And so I I had Galatians 5:1, I had put myself back under the law.

And I just I loved God and I wanted to please him, but it just my reach always exceeded my grasp. And no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't reach that place where I felt like now I can rest in Christ. And so that's when God began to do a work in my heart.

Well, but so what what triggered Like Did you know that Did you know this was happening? I kind of or I I knew that I wanted lordship. Okay, yeah. I was longing for that and I just couldn't get it. So I just I thought just keep trying. You know, keep studying more, read the Bible more, serve more.

Like I I just thought if I kept serving, I would get to that place where where I could rest in Christ. And I forget, was there something you read or a sermon you heard or was it just reading a, you know, passage or like what? Or did you just hit rock bottom some Like what was going on in your life? >> but but I was preaching through Romans.

Okay. So I spent 5 years preaching through Romans and when it first hit was in Romans 1:17 where he says, "In the gospel, it's a subjective genitive, a God kind of righteousness is revealed." And so all of a sudden what what I what I'm reading then for with Luther in my own heart is that the righteousness that God requires, he gives to you by faith.

And so all of a sudden, I'm starting to realize that I I'm missing half the gospel. Is I know the cross paid for my sins, but I'm looking at my own righteousness trying to gain enough so that I I could be approved. And I missed that the other part was God would take the righteousness of Jesus Christ and put it to my account and look at me as if I lived the life that Jesus lived.

And I and so that starts breaking in. And then I'm reading Bunyan, Grace Abounding to the Chief of Sinners. And Bunyan gets in to the same spiral that I got into. You know, he he thinks he committed the unpardonable sin. He and he struggled I think it was 7 years.

So he's in this deep battle thinking that he can never be redeemed. And one day he's walking in a park and he said it finally hit him that that the righteousness that God requires is seated at his right hand. And it's the same yesterday, today, and forever. And when he has a good day, it doesn't increase, and when he has a bad day, it doesn't decrease.

And he said it it finally broke in and joy overwhelmed his heart when when this this so-called righteousness and lordship that I I was craving and seeking actually was a free gift that God would give to me and he could actually look at me and say, "This is my son in whom I am well pleased."

And that started overwhelming me. And then I shared with you I was in a gym Yeah. leg day lifting. Yeah. Yeah. And I'm the only one in the gym and all of a sudden it finally hit me. In Romans 4:16 that he says, you know, "This gospel's by grace.

I want to do it all through my son." And so the only thing that can fit with that, he said, is faith. If you if you add one work to it, it it falls apart. So it's like the only way that this gospel works is if it's by faith alone.

He says so that you may be certain. And I'm sitting in that gym going, "I can be certain." And and the only way it can be is if I bring nothing to this table. And he does it all and all I can do is hold out an empty hand and look to Christ and Christ alone.

And I can be certain. And it just began to overwhelm me in a few verses earlier, Romans 4, it says, "To the working one, uh his wage is what he earned." And and then it says, "But to the one who's not a working one, and but believes in him, that is credited to him as righteousness."

And so I'm I'm realizing I'm still trying to be a working one to get God's favor. And and and so not working because I have his favor. So I had it backwards. And so that's when the light came on and I sat in that gym and I think I wept for 5 hours.

I I just I mean, it laughing, crying, like he loves me. And and and Romans 5:5 says, "I'll shed abroad the love of God in Christ Jesus in your heart." And at that point, I don't think he it just he just like sticks that in there. He stuck it in there by showing me that it's by grace through faith and you can be certain.

So it's through the gospel that finally shed abroad he really loves me. Yeah. And I I I was brought back to now I can rest. And that rest will begin to change my life the way that I wanted it to. And and so I was I had it all backwards.

Trying to work hard so I could rest. And once I rested in that gospel, he began to change things that I could have never changed. How long ago was that? That was about 15 years ago. >> 15 years ago. So I've been journeying this a little longer. >> Yeah.

Yeah. But that was the the freedom that started breaking in. And then as I kept going in Romans, Romans 6:14 says, "Sin shall not have dominion over you." Why? You're not under law, but you're under grace. And that chapter's on sanctification. So now I'm starting to put it all together that there's a way to live more holy than if you're under law. >> Yes.

And the way you live more holy is if you're under grace. Yeah. And you're under this God who accepts you and loves you and receives you through his own son. That's going to begin to produce works that the law never could. Yeah. And then he moves into Romans 7 and says, "You've died to the law."

Yeah. So you might be joined to another, the Lord Jesus Christ, in order that you might bear fruit for God. So the only way you're going to bear fruit for God is if you die to the law. And I was still under the law trying to perform to get his love and favor.

And until you die and be married to Christ who's fulfilled it all, that was where I I just everything lifted and changed me. And then "If you love me, you'll keep my commandments." And it's what all came together is you can't do an end around God's love. I was trying to serve so that I could know he loved me.

And once I knew he loved me, it just flows now. Yeah. Love to him and love to others and it's genuine and it's real and it's sincere because God first loved me. Whole Bible. We love because he first loved us. And and what's the greatest commandment? To love God with your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself, and upon these two things hangs the whole law.

Yeah. And so the whole law has been pointing to that. Mhm. And the gospel is produces that. Mhm. And that's what God wants from his people. Mhm. And so it is It changed my life and I was overwhelmed. Yeah. So no, it's It's a fire hose. No, seriously.

No, I mean like hearing that makes me okay, now that experience you had in the gym that day, the overwhelm, you know, scriptures coming alive in new ways. Did you still Was it like a I never I you never went back. Was there What you know, how was that process like? >> much never I don't really think I've ever lost that again.

Yeah. But there's days, you know, I think because we have remaining sin. >> Yes, yes. Some days I sense it more, it doesn't matter whether I do or don't. I just know it's there now. Yeah. So it does peak and valley how much I perceive it. Yes, yes.

But I I know that it doesn't Mhm. >> fluctuate. It does not change. It it His love for me can't can't increase or decrease. Yeah. Now I'm curious with your your family. Okay, so Laura, you know, and the kids. They were following you in this legalistic kind of, you know, this lifestyle was destroying you.

Um How did that affect them? And then when they saw the change in you, how did that affect them? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I'll never forget one day when I was in the middle of it all. Um Laura looked at me and she said, "I miss my old husband."

Cuz I was just so melancholy and sober and you know, I just I lost all joy from being under the law. And that that hit me. You know, and and when when God set me free, so the blessing was my kids were not that old yet. Okay. So I was really, man, I was reading them the Bible for 2 hours, shorter catechisms, memorizing, you know, I was so over the edge.

We read a missionary every I wanted them to see missionaries be unsaved, saved, and go give their life to God. And these poor little kids are getting overloaded. And and so it was it was beautiful. The Lloyd Jones, he he said, um parenting, the best parenting is to make to show your kids that you're the most beautiful home is the home filled with the love of Christ.

So to to begin to now bring into a home someone who knows his love and and shares it and permeates it and models it in a local body where there was always families in our home. There was always ministry and so they they began to see the the joy of Christ um in in their daddy.

And I I was so blessed to start learning how to parent by grace and not by law. Yeah. And that's a whole series to talk about, but there's a huge difference Yeah. >> to parent by by grace, so that your your home doesn't smell like Mount Sinai, but Mount Zion.

Mhm. And not just 100 rules, Yeah. but every summer I'd say, "Guys, we got two rules. To love God with your heart, mind, soul, and strength, and your neighbor as yourself." Yeah. And I would just tutor them with that to Jesus Christ to show them that no one could keep it.

Wow. And so the it it was a a beautiful fruit. And then I preached Romans, I came back and just re-preached it. Yeah. And Laura was raised in a lot of legalism as well. >> And she said, "Man, being sanctified by grace has finally broken Mhm. And so she just in the last 5 years Mhm. got majorly set free Wow. from living under the law and and knowing that God loves her now.

Do you feel like that's something God is just doing in people's lives currently, like recently? >> I'm seeing it everywhere. Where people are I mean I like I believe I was saved all those years. I did I was, too. You know, um I think the enemy just got me so fixated on my own actions that I didn't look at the cross that often.

I didn't think about his love. I was just constantly evaluating mine because I'm like, "I don't think it's good enough. I don't think it's good enough." And and I think we're kind of pushed that way in our education cuz I I became a naval gazer. Yeah. Yeah, exactly because I I've I was in love with Jesus when I was in high school.

And I I don't know. It was great. I loved it. And it was just somehow the more I studied um you know, in college, seminary, uh not blaming everything on that. It was just I don't know. There was just like a system put in place that seemed more spiritual or I don't even know if spiritual's the word.

Just more serious. And I don't want to be serious. I don't want to mess around. You know, I mean, I obviously you remember me. You're like, "Wow, you don't want to mess around." I mean, to me that was very serious. So just it it was I was doing the best with what I had, you know, but I I did, you know, so when I became a believer I started telling all my friends about Jesus.

I would cut class to tell people about Jesus. Um so there was a seriousness in like I've got to get the gospel out. Um but I really believed I'm forgiven. If I die tonight, I'm going to heaven. Yeah. And then something in those years that's what the enemy does.

He like he deceives us. And now suddenly I'm working for something I already had. Um and it it made me miserable. It made me more sinful. I mean, I was trying it so hard to live a holy life. And that was the most unholy I'd ever been. And I think that's a gift from God.

It is. You can't get holy by law. Yeah. And then it's like lately after really praying, you know, which I've shared with you and and writing about in the book like oh my gosh, you know, I'm starting to understand his love for me. It's it's counterintuitive. You would think I'll be less holy um because it's all grace now or and I'll I'll not care about doing his work.

It's like, "No, I am so excited to do his work. I feel like sin is kind of just losing any hold on me. And my logic tells me that shouldn't work. You know, if I feel guilty and and feel shame and I'm unsure that I'm going to heaven, that would motivate me to be more holy.

You would think that would work, but it doesn't. It's somehow abiding in that love which is walking in the spirit, you don't fulfill the desires of the flesh. Yeah. That's it. It is counterintuitive and that's how we know it's the truth. Yeah. So you've now with your kids do you feel like they get it and they're >> Yeah.

And I I think that they had to journey as well. I You know, even if you preach it to them, it it seems like it's something you got to discover in on your own. Like we're all so wired toward legalism. Yeah. And then you told me at the coffee shop you you've been trying to minister to other pastors to help them out of this because you're seeing, just like I'm now seeing, there are a lot of guys stuck in this.

And they're the leaders of the churches. Yeah. No, I I'm running into more and more. Even the pastors' conference that you and I just did. >> Um You know, can we talk about that now? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Definitely. So, you know, at the end you were sharing this and people who didn't know his love that that they were really secure in it.

Knowing I'm loved by God, come kneel down if you want to be prayed over for that. >> Almost every one of that room did. >> Yeah. And so here's all the leaders and pastors as they come together Yeah. that, you know, you I I think the grind of ministry, there's just different things that Yeah. you you can drift Yeah. and be going through the motions and lose your first love.

Yeah. And it it was interesting. I didn't expect that many. I didn't either. And so yeah, the question was like, "How many of you I think I said something like, you're only 70 to 80% sure that God loves you." Yeah. And that you're his child. Like it's it's like and I would say 80% of the people were like, "That's me."

And got on their knees. And these are pastors. And I'm seeing the insecurity in pastors everywhere. And then I think, "Gosh." And so how is a congregate You know, that's some of the concern I have in my life is gosh, if that was me and I'm preaching then that's going to be placed on them.

That's why even when I ask about your kids and your wife because you know who you are is going to impact them. And they'll be, you know, you don't even try to disciple them, but you do. They they pick it up from you. And so that that broke my heart.

It excited me that these guys are honest and wanting the love of Christ in their heart now. But it also breaks my heart that they've been working and serving God. And if the chief aim of man is to glorify him and enjoy him forever, how do you enjoy a God that you're not sure if he loves you?

I In my season, I couldn't. Yeah. And so I don't know if you can. Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a lot of pressure to perform, to build things, plant things, provide a like there's just so much pressure that I think we just lose what this is all about.

And and to love God and to love others and to spread that. Then I think we just we get lost. >> Yeah. You know, I was so encouraging to see how happy you were at the coffee shop. Oh, man. Just like your joy um Yeah, it it's just I think we went through a dark season of work and I I mean, there's still some.

It's not like I was just absolutely miserable the whole time. No. There's still like seasons, experiences. I wasn't being fake. It's just like there's this little like doubt and and you don't know if you can just publicly say it you know, because you're the pastor and um you're not supposed to doubt your salvation.

Um you're not supposed to doubt God's love. And so, if I doubt it, then that's even make things worse. So, I'm just not going to talk about it and I'll just have my own private struggle. But it doesn't mean that the spirit never used us and that great things did not happen during that season.

Yeah. It's just we just missed out on something very precious during those years. Yeah. Yeah, no, what what I have now at Yeah. >> it's heaven on earth. Wow. And it it makes the you know, I think of Jacob you know, serving Laban for his daughter. Yeah. And and he's he served for seven years and then seven more and he said it felt like nothing cuz of his love for her.

Uh I just my joy in serving him now it's it's it's a joy and it seems like nothing now where before it felt so weighty. And so, serving out of a God who you know who loves you Yeah. it's it's almost um you can't get exhausted. Wow. >> Like it it continues to burn the fuel in the fire.

Um I mean, what what piece of advice would you give to people cuz I just I was thinking about this on the way here, too, like we should be the most ecstatic like you know, like like the What's that show? Joy inexpressible like Peter says. I can't even explain to you.

That's what I saw in you when we're at the coffee shop. Like, wow, okay, this is joy. Like a deep deep joy, inexpressible. I got no words for this. It's so good. But I don't see that often. And and I think, you know, we read those passages and it's almost like something on the menu that you've never really tried or tasted, you know?

And and I think a lot of people listening to this will be like, I don't have that joy. I'm still stuck maybe I I'm not so bad to where I'm losing 40 lb and can only eat eggs, which is weird. I never heard of that. >> Yeah. Um but anyways, it's but I think there's a lot of people that are not experiencing this life to the full.

What I mean, what do you say when you counsel someone like that? I think almost every probably 90% of pastors I talk with they get put under this weight and they're just trying to be faithful to God. They want to do their calling. They're they're laboring at it.

But it it becomes just that and it takes so much time, effort, energy. Um I think the secret place um diminishes. And you know, the gospel gets away and you get when you get physically weary from just grinding like that all the time I I think it wears you down and for me it's brought me back to simplicity.

And I I had a a dear he's like my son who just buried his wife. She's 30 with a 3-year-old and a 1-year you know, newborn when she got the cancer diagnosis. And we went to he wanted to show me the grave they picked out, the grave site.

And they had rocking chairs there and we sat in that rocking chair for 3 hours talking about the resurrection and what's going to happen to that body and filling each other up with faith and peace and joy. And I had so many things I had to do that day.

And before I might have to say, man, I love you, but I got to I got to and now I'm just present where we could have sat there all day. Wow. And and we're going to we're going to be here together at this time. Wow. And and we're going to journey and lift our eyes and worship God and and we did.

Um so things are what's really important is starting to take over and it to love people you know is is really really important and trying to balance I think I think what helped me when I got so sick is the church grew more when I was sick. And I finally realized they don't need me.

And I knew that, but I didn't know it. And I think I would say to everybody is you know, receive the love of God, live into it and let him love his body. Let the whole body use their gifts to work together like you were talking about, not just one guy preaching using his gift, the whole body.

And let the freedom begin to be where we really love each other. Um it takes a weight off. You know, I have I got to come up with a new program. I got to come up with this. What What does the church need? What are we You're you're always looking at that versus looking at Christ who gave his life for you and he loves you.

And I want to go minister out of that fullness. I love that. And not be the the hurried pastor like I was. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, I mean, that was recent then at the grave site that Yeah. So, those things are breaking loose now. So, I learned at 15 years.

Yeah. But you know, the the freedom in ministry it it was reading Hudson Taylor's spiritual secret. That guy his ministry's increasing, growing, 10,000 missionaries he's overseeing. They're going to they're going to die. There's wars and and this guy just walked in peace because he learned how to abide.

And he's like they're like, why aren't you worried? And he said, because God is. And he learned how to literally draw everything from Christ and and let him minister through him like a branch. And so, I started learning how deeply to abide in ministry and draw from Christ everything that they need.

Yeah. Um it's all him. And and he'll give you everything that you need. I need you to get a list of these books you keep mentioning. >> I want to change your life. >> Okay, but it's like literally I need you to text me all the Okay. Which yeah, when you tell me the story about you guys sitting in the rocking chairs for hours, I realized why you don't text for sometimes for 2 or 3 days.

So, now I'm less offended. Um but the other thing, too, I mean, this just happened and you told me the story of his wife cuz this was just a couple weeks ago, a few weeks ago. And she lived in my house. She was like my daughter. >> we kept her for about four months and she just became our daughter.

So, it was hard. And you share Could you share the story cuz I I'm trying to I don't want to butcher it of when she's she's dying and she wants to give it She's Was this in the hospital? >> No, we we she was in hospice and me and Laura went to her her bedside at Sunday after church and she died that week.

And she she told me she said, you know, she said this whole trial had been about a year and three or four months. She said there there's been like this shadow. And these little beams of God's love and light break in. And she said and that shadow's gone.

And all I see is the glory of Christ. And she said, Ken, go tell the church this is easy. This is easy. Said, you can do this. And the good shepherd just came and met her. And it was the sweetest finish I think I've ever seen. But I just I love that it is you can do this.

Like she's just saying it's not hard. He He is going to come meet you. And it just I mean, this is a woman with a 3-year-old and a 1-year-old. >> She fought so hard to mother those girls. And when God said no she just received his will and and worshipped.

And it it was beautiful. I watched the service online after you told me and I listened to her husband and it's just so powerful. He He led worship. Oh, wow. And there's a casket sitting right there as he's raising his hands worshipping Jesus. And I just I was just sobbing in the front row going, this is the Holy Spirit.

You know, and and afterwards it was like a wedding versus a funeral. And you know, the unbelievers didn't know what to make of that. Oh gosh, that's so amazing. >> But I was reading this book on Edwards, another book I'll send you. But he's he's talking about the the love in in that's existed for all of eternity in the Trinity.

And it's so abundant. And then God sends his Holy Spirit into us. And he sheds abroad that love into our hearts. So, that now it's a divine love that we love him with and we love others. So, it's the same love, but just different objects. So, divine love causes us to love him and love others.

And he says it's going to climax in heaven where heaven is love, Edwards said. And he said hell is where God's going to pour out undiluted wrath. There'll be no more common grace. It's just they're going to it's just going to be unending. And he said and love he's going to withhold nothing.

He's going to pour out eternal love on you forever and ever. You're going to finally fully know how much he loves you and you're going to love him perfect and we're going to love each other perfect. That's how this is all is going to climax. So, how do we not rejoice with joy and express more where this train is going?

Wow. >> Like it just it's eternity. It's so good. Uh one of our elders just spoke on hope last Tuesday night and he's just talking about what do you anticipate? Like what's the longest you anticipated something where you anticipated every day? You know, and some would say, "Oh, my wedding day."

Or my child being born. One of our elders is like, "Uh 5 years I was anticipating getting out of prison." You know, I mean just like every day thinking about that day. And he's just like why aren't we hoping in this future? Love this future. Who hopes in that?

Who sits around That's why it's beautiful when you're saying we're sitting on rocking chairs at a gravesite talking about what it's going to be like. It was intense. And beautiful. I think though that the reason we don't hope is the reason we we don't know his love. We're not living in the gospel where we really believe that God loves me.

So, if I don't believe that, I'm 70% sure, how do I hope? Cuz I I'm hoping 30% isn't wrong. So, I I think they're tied together. And and when you know the fullness of his love, you have the fullness of his hope. Cuz you're certain. Yeah. I think we use the word hope like the world. >> Yeah, like the world cuz like, "Uh I hope the Nuggets win."

You know, but you don't know. It's just that I'm just hoping. Whereas the word, the way I understand the word hope, you would know better as elpis or I think when you're asleep it means certainty. Yeah. No, but I did know I do remember some stuff. Isn't that it?

Elpis or See, I know some words too. Um but isn't it the idea that it's almost like in Spanish uh the word hope and the word wait are similar or the same word. Espero. Espero que I hope that, you know, I wish for this or it also means I wait for this.

Like I'm waiting for the bus. Like it's going to happen. Um and I hope it's going to happen. Um it's the same thing. It's just like a waiting for something that's certain. Um versus like this hope like, "Oh, I hope they win." You know, but I don't know.

And I think that's the way people look at heaven and this future existence new heaven new earth God's presence with us is with this worldly hope that isn't just waiting. It's waiting to find out if it's actually going to happen. And that's what I loved about this this lady.

It was certain. And she ran to it. And she's she said, "You can do this." Like it it it she wasn't 90% sure. She she ran to it. And her husband said, "From the day we met." And they were in high school or college. All she ever talked about was heaven.

And so it was almost like God gave her this special assurance. And and and he called her home early and it was there was a beauty and a a hardness to it. Yeah. Okay, last thought. Unless another one comes up. But Um >> I'll go. I've So, the Lord did a work in my life where I realized all of this.

Like I've been so focused on my love towards him and questioning my love for him that I don't take time to meditate on his love and his promises. Like I would tremble at his commands but not at his promises. Well, that's good. And that was just it's like, "No, I got to tremble at those too.

He said it. I have You know, and that helped me like I have to believe this." You know, um and the more I meditate, it's like he was setting me free. The more he put the love of Christ in my heart, I would know. I would know. I would know.

But there are still times where the enemy gets in my head and takes me back and suddenly I'm feeling those old insecure feelings again. I mean, did you ever go through something like >> I have to fight I think it's a fight of faith every day. Cuz we we had to get to ground zero and understand it.

And now we got to fight to live into it. And I think one thing that blessed me was when when Luther was set free and all together born again in the bell tower. Um it was later I I can't remember the diet of worms. He was going somewhere and it came on him again.

And he had the same despair and darkness. And he thought, "Oh, no." And he went and fought the fight of faith and it cleared. Way quicker. And so I really think that you know, we have remaining sin renewing our minds in truth that we can still go back to performance.

We can still go back, you know, the conference that we just did with the big group. What I heard from everyone, probably 80% of the the church that I pastor that came was people who were abused. And when you shared about the abuse that you went through it it broke for them that I I have that view of God like my dad.

There was a freedom that overcame people that night to finally realize that's that's not who my father in heaven is. And so I think there's hangovers from how you were parented. Um how you, you know, were a perfectionist and you had to perform to get people's acceptance. So, we're so geared that way that I think we have to renew our minds every day in the gospel to to keep myself in the love of Christ.

It's great. It's great.