Staff Talks with Francis: Embracing the Unseen

Yeah, there was a lot of stuff in these last few days, a lot of things. Um, from a biblical world view, he says, "Don't stare at what's seen because that's all temporary. Stare at what is unseen. That's what's eternal." And it just heightened my imagination of what is real, how much is downloaded to me from God himself that is not all cognitive like oh I saw it or I heard it.

I mean that's what biblical that's 1 Corinthians 2. No eye is seen, no ears heard, no mind is conceived. these things that God has revealed to us by his spirit and um you know and she's talking about the demonic side and musicians who will just swear that no I got that from another being um you know that's a lot of stuff we listen to guys that you know what's the name of the famous demon um Slim Shady or you know whatever It's like that, you know, they say, "I call up these um this being that tells me this or that."

And meanwhile, as believers, we really believe that the Holy Spirit can just communicate to us. And even, you know, like the message I gave at at Vintage, it was just like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Oh my gosh." It was just very like sometimes it just flows. It's like, "Wow, I feel like I got a crazy killer outline."

And I didn't even get to it all, but it was just like, how did that all come so quickly and so outlined so well? It's only happened a couple times. Um, so a couple things. one. Um God was showing me again like some of the stuff we take for granted um in other places like a Pepperdine or vintage or some of these gatherings like it's mindblowing to some people what we just kind of assume.

And we've all known that to some degree. Like when you have church intensive guys come out, it's like, whoa. Well, I got to go way back to this. Like they're not even enjoying their time with the Lord. They're still not even really praying or just like, "Wow, that's weird."

Um, and so it was just kind of a reminder to me. I think Kevin's brought that up at pastor's conferences where some of the things I bring up, it's like it's really significant to them. And if I guess for me, if I'm around just the same group all the time, I'll keep looking for new stuff.

That's probably not the main thing. They're just like because it's new. I think that's the way my mind works. But then when I'm in other environments, maybe I'll go back to the foundational things because I'm realizing, oh wow, they might be missing out on some of these things.

So the message I really feel like the Lord gave me for Vintage Church, and I thought it communicated well, even though it wasn't complete, and it was a little kind of crazy. Um, it was that verse in 1 Corinthians 4:1 where it says, "Let all men regard us as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God."

Um, that we're not first of all, like if I go to a place to speak, they don't just consider me a servant of Christ. it's more a Christian celebrity or someone that'll draw a crowd or um whatever and and some with good intentions like no I think he brings something deep here that we need and uh that that I truly could impart something to them and but not as a servant of Christ or as a steward of the mysteries of God.

Uh, usually they want me to bring something new to them. I mean, when you go to a church gathering, you know, you may be hoping to learn something or that you didn't know before, but it's information or maybe he's going to explain a passage like I've never heard it explained before.

It's explanation. It's information. It's not mystery. And yet the thing I was emphasizing to that group of people is just, yeah, the music was awesome. The vibe of the place is awesome. I'm going to give a good message. That is a gifting of mine. But if that's like enough, like that's really sad and for decades that's been enough for people.

And they don't want mystery like something mysterious can happen because uh you know like I you know we can sing songs like the blessing and their children and their children and their children and as long as we sing it well and the band's good it's that's awesome. But if you look at that passage where he's he tells Aaron and his sons saying in numbers chapter 6 at the very end he says speak to Aaron and his son saying thus you shall bless the people of Israel.

You should say to them the Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face to shine upon you and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. So shall they put my name upon the people of Israel and I will bless them?

Whoa. What do you mean? Like you're going to put my name on the people and bless them? Look, I'm not sure I understand what it means to have the name of God put on me. Like so Aaron and his sons will say this and somehow that act will put his name upon me and bless me and these things will happen to me.

Like do I really believe that when I come to a gathering and it's time for a benediction? I didn't even understand the benediction in the past, but now I'm going, "Oh, like do I when I sit and I hear a benediction placed upon me, do I believe something happened there?

Something mysterious that I wouldn't get somewhere else?" That was my point. It's like you guys are content with like a good sermon and good music and feelgood stuff, but is there something mystical and then for the word to be living and active and sharper than two? Like what does that mean?

Like the word goes into my marrow and somehow the word reads me like wait that what does that mean? like these words are alive and active. And what does it mean that when Paul says, "I here's the book of Romans, but I can't wait to get to you because I want to impart something spiritual to you, like telling that church, so you could have watched a video of me of a great sermon of mine, but do you go that's not what I want?

I want because the spirit supposedly if he loves us then the spirit will give him a gift and somehow it's not just flesh and blood up there like there's some sort of spiritual impartation that you get from human beings that you're not going to get from a video. doesn't mean the video does nothing, but there's some sort of impartation that is human that AI will never reproduce because I'm made in his image.

And so therefore, God is able to speak directly and pour his love into my heart through the spirit. And that's why the natural man can't ever get this, but I can get it. And I can somehow impart like Isaac imparted to Jacob and Esau and again and then going to the bread and the cup and reading through the the the road to Emmas and like gosh Jesus was walking preaching to them and nothing no clue who he was.

They're like on what are you idiot? You don't know what happened? that like they're talking to Jesus like an what are you the only one that doesn't know what just happened in the last few days so supposedly and they're telling him the resurrection story having no clue they're telling it to the resurrected Christ that's crazy and then the moment Jesus and I took a piece of bread did this I get it >> what >> that's that's why the ancient church is like no something with the breaking of the bread and eating the flesh, drinking the blood.

I go, "Don't you come because you're going, oh, this is this could kill me." According to Romans, 1 Corinthians 11, but I need to recognize the body. And I like this is a mystical supernatural like like do we understand what happens when we come together and is that do we really believe that there is a spiritual unseen thing that can happen here that can't happen anywhere else and that's why I'm coming here that's why I'm gathering with these people and then And I didn't even get into this, but after I like wrote all these things down, I'm like, "Oh, that's why they devoted themselves, to the apostles teaching, you know, to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread, to the prayers, because that's when this mystery happens is with those things."

And so of course they devoted themselves to those things because they were after what so different from our world where it's like information explanation. It's like no we're supposed to be stewards of the mysteries and getting people to come going okay we're here for mystery >> um not for a great expository sermon.

I mean why did they get together in those early days? It's like no something can happen. It's all well. I'm going to wait in this upper room cuz something mysterious is going to happen to me and then I'll have this power. I'm going to believe that when I gather with believers in love, there'll be something.

And it goes along with that waiting that we talked about last week. Um, and but Mark was like he was just saying like he goes he was saying, "Yeah, I come to your gatherings and get in the music and I'm just about to feel something and then hey, we got a men's group coming up Friday night and women, hey children, we got a circus, you know."

He's like, "Okay, all right, all right." Then you get me into your sermon. I'm like, "Okay, okay." And then we just sing these songs that we always sing every week. And you know, it's just like, man, what about stained glass in there? What about, you know, when they ring the bell, what about this?

This is this, you know, this is you're right next to Hollywood. We can do these things. And and and you know, then I'm pushing back on him going, "No, it can't be Hollywood." And you know, like I I want more than Hollywood. I want this. And even after the message, he was like, "I still want the stained glass.

I still I go I go, "But didn't you hear my message?" Like, "That's not what we're after." He goes, "Okay, let me ask you something. Would it hurt?" I go, "No, it would hurt it." He goes, "Okay, that's all I'm saying. That's what I want. I always get what I want."

Okay, whatever. But he he was just talking about like my experience in the Roman Catholic Church is Yeah. the bells, the the darkness, the the stained glass, the mystery, um, alongside of all this other stuff. And and I was trying to explain to the pastors there that when we love each other like which again I still don't know of churches in America that are known for their love for one another and we're not even chasing that.

We don't believe there's a mysterious presence of God when we love each other as he's commanded us to. And yet, First John 4 says it's when we love each other that he's somehow made manifest among us. And that's the whole beloved concept is when we know his love.

This is going to be then we're going to love each other. And there's just we're we're creating this temple of the Holy Spirit that's somehow invisible. Um so I don't know. I'm just realizing that in our gatherings it's very easy again to go well this was at what we were after but it's just human nature. we're going to deviate from this stuff and pretty soon it's like who's in my house church who's leading worship this week and oh cool you know I like when Dali she's awesome I get excited like no but there's something about her too she's seems in tune with the presence of God but I there's just like that fleshly oh it's that again or or whatever or Will King's gone we got to go with Will Cotterall you know there's this.

No, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like we can become who's here, who's not. And again, it's not mystery anymore. >> And I just I want the mystery. That's what I was saying to the crowd. I go, "Really? This is enough? Don't you want to leave?" And just go, "Wo, what happened to me in there?"

But it continued and it's in my soul and and like I really believe mysteriously something happened to me in my high school, college years where it's like I don't really need anyone to push me in any direction cuz there's something burning inside of me that I want to be in the presence of God.

I want all the sin out of my life. I fear the Lord. I want to be used for him. And I don't know that anyone's ever really pushed that in me. It's all coming from the inside out. It's this mystery. And I think as we seek that and rather than seek all the things that are explainable, um, and and again, it's not that I'm against counseling or I'm against all this stuff.

I'm just saying that's all explainable. Um, and how do we get our churches back into the mysteries of God and and steward those things well? Cuz there are things in this book that you just can't quantify and explain just from flesh and blood. And if we're not pushing our people towards that then we're not going to get them very far.

Um and to believe in the mysterious prayers, mysterious communion, mysterious living word of God. uh and this the mystery that happens when we love each other and the spirit then gives us gifts for these people. And I feel like that was happening as I was speaking. And I do think there's a mystery to my gift.

I mean, that's probably the most I've preached in a long time, you know, just because I'd have like a 2hour session here, 2hour session there, and it's just, you know, with space and time to soak this in. And I go, "Wow, yeah, that is in a weird way.

I don't know. I just leave so pumped up and like, wow, that was good. That was really good. That was feel like something real happened, you know? And I just want everyone to to experience that. And so somehow it's to take our eyes off of the things we can see and really measure almost physically. and trust something happened at that table.

And so it was very fun to be at a church and feel like I raised their I don't know if imagination's the right word. I >> It is the right word. >> Is it the right word? >> Yes. >> Yeah. like a gospel imagination like >> they're like to be like like >> uh break that ceiling of like what's possible like it's just like you kind of think so low expect so low >> and it's like no with >> the spirit of God, the living God, you know, the victorious God and the power of God and the resurrection of God and all that stuff and like the cosmic demons like like you can't be like being like so like pick up kids that, you know what I'm saying?

Like there's so >> and so to be like, hey, like there's all this, >> you know, scaffolding around religion >> that we just try to like box it in and make it like very predictable and something that people can come to and exit out of and >> and you know, whatever.

And it's it's just very explainable, but it's supposed to represent and be a proxy for the unexplainable. Yeah, for most people all that they see is just the kids program, the youth program, the men's retreat, you know, you know, parking lot logistics. That's the thing. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that's that's a sad part of it.

Unless you continue like the pastors continue to like like preach and people continue to hunger and long for >> like the unseen eternal things. Uh it is very easy to just like collapse into like these like very like widgets of Christianity, you know. >> Yeah. It Yeah. I I've used this illustration in the past, but I think I need to bring it back more.

I mean, it's explained to one of the groups like you've got this typical church service like at at at this church, beautiful facility. Um, I mean it is awesome. It it's they rent it and but it's you got space galore to mingle, hang out. It's beautiful. Uh, the energy, the vibe, tons of university students.

Um, you've got a great worship band, good worship leader, and then I'm guessing your buddy and speaker is is fine, you know, and so it's always it's always going to be here. It's never going to be horrible. >> Yeah. >> Um, if that team at that place shows up every week, it's it's never going to go down here.

Um, but what I'm saying is it's never going to get up here either. And it's like when you collapse that stuff, it's like, Lord, if you don't show up, this is going to be the stupidest gathering. But if you do show up, oh my gosh, you know, you're going to do things that this could never do.

And we're scared to get rid of this because it's like, h this could bomb. But I'm like, gosh, all I want is that possibility of that. And I just think as long as we create these controlled environments. It's the illustration I used when I was at uh Waco at Antioch.

I said, you know, they have a wave machine place there. You know, I go, you know what's going to happen? and you get to this one spot, that's where the wave breaks and you paddle and it's going to be a great wave all the time. Consistent. It's a wave machine and it's a blast.

You know, I haven't done it, but I'm assuming that would be so fun. Take all the guest work out and you just paddle the same place. The water's always the same temperature. There's no sharks. there is nothing, you know, or you know, you jump in the ocean. You just don't know what's going to happen like this rogue wave or this rogue hungry great white or or you just have the ride of your life or it could just die as you're sitting out there and there's nothing.

Like we want church service like the Waco wave that just you're guaranteed and my human nature just, you know, get me up there. I know it won't suck. Um, let me have Mercy with me or Diana with me or, you know, it's going to be fine. Um, I don't know.

It's just anytime we start thinking that way, I think the Lord goes, "Oh, you're happy with that?" Okay. I And I should have said this there, but I go, "I'd rather be at Taco Bell in Compton with a chance that I'm with a few people that just want to experience the presence of God over a crunchy taco." you know, like, okay, let's go.

Let's go. You know, but we can't be happy with the other stuff. I don't see that in scripture. They had to have the spirit. They And we're just content with good information, charisma, charisma in the fleshly sense, um, and just energetic worship. And that'll grow a church uh you know from all outward appearances.

But you know and that's not to discount everything that's planning and creating a good environment or whatever else but it just seems to always lead you towards a contentment in those things. and I don't know how to fix that. But it was fun, you know, dreaming a little bit with the leaders there and just throwing out some ideas and seeing what they do with it.

But for us, it's okay. How do we steward mystery? because we can very easily I mean today's reading was about the traditions and the commands and um and we can just start doing our tradition and not expect these things. So that's it. >> What's the answer? Um >> like for us, right?

Like >> there's there's Yeah. >> Yeah. Mystery. Like we have to get serious about believing that we are stewards of the mysteries of God. And so a pastor's job then I think I said this a little a couple weeks ago in Brazil and I shared here is not just preaching the word of God but trembling at the word of God and believing it's doing something to me and therefore when I get to the people it's like okay I'm stewarding that what the word of God did in me.

Um, it's I have to be like freaking out about communion and really believing week after week this could kill me. This could kill someone else according to scripture. Um, and yet there's this grace that could be imparted during this time too. Um, I have to believe that goes all the way back to when me, you and Shed were praying about Oh, maybe you were there about the spiritual gifts. >> Not there. >> No, no, that's right.

Cuz you were against it at first, but like saying, "No, this is scripture. We're to eagerly pursue these things." And um that means every person in our church, that means Roberto or his kids have a spiritual gift to impart. And we got to believe that. Um you know, it's it's like this mysterious thing.

And you know, I remember us leaving that prayer time going, "Okay, you know, and Kevin Sheddon was like, yeah, absolutely." And then he had Roberto's kids heal his back, you know, like >> he came out of that stewarding a mystery. >> Um, and we lose that. That's the mission drift is going back to what's safe and what we know will quote unquote work and it won't suck.

Um, and but that's what God was always against in the Old Testament clearly of, "Oh, you're going to go with that king. Oh, you're going to trust in the chariots of Egypt? Do it. Here's what's going to happen." >> Um, and like what he says to King Asa, he's like, "No, my eyes are roaming.

I'm looking. I want to strongly support those who really believe and put their trust in me. And so there has to be it's just like a a changing of what we believe as leaders. Our job is is to keep the mystery and the power of God in front of people.

Um but sometimes that means emptying ourselves of what we know will work humanly and going spiritually. You know God says otherwise can let me give a more creative prayer. He says but this is the way you're going to put my name on the people. Let's go with this instead.

You know this is these are the words of Jesus. Let's pray. our father who art in heaven. Um gosh, something happened when Jesus broke the bread. Let's do that. Let's let's wait on the Lord. They've always waited on him. Um so, how do we keep our people in that? because I'd say most of our leaders are sometimes we're scrambling for something new um to teach on Sunday and because they're bored.

So to get them out of their boredom, let's do something more creative >> rather than having greater faith in the simple and in the mystery of communion and the mystery of just reading his word out loud, you know, and kind of that lectio deina. Let me just let me read it again and believe these words are going to do something to you.

Let me pray this prayer over you. um because this is what they did back then and somehow it puts the name of God on you. Let's love each other and trust that as you love the people there, God's going to give you I don't know, a prayer, a psalm to read a something.

Um yeah, to leave space for things like that. And so in some ways we have a a great opportunity for some of those things. Um because we're not rushing to get the kids out of child care and to get them out of the parking lot before the next gathering.

And there's just there's just some freedoms we have. Um, I will say though, like I've been saying, like there's also something about the greater gifts that we've not taken advantage of. Initially, it was purposely, but then the last few years, we just haven't figured out how to do it.

But I know when I got up there to preach, it was it was a good thing. Um, there's unbelievers, there's people of all different walks of life, and I feel like the spirit moved. And um, and I left satisfied cuz I felt like, wow, I got to use my gifts and lead him into mystery. >> No, it was good.

It got me thinking actually. >> You record it. >> Yeah. No. Yeah. I was like immediately I was going to, >> you know, be like, we need to, you know, get this out to like our pastors, right? Cuz I do think people can fall into the the road of all right Matt's up for communion rolls up like like the the thinking is like completely different.

And then the other thing I was just thinking about was how like like um for the elders of these networks what I I think what I like I'm I'm I'm like you need to step down and I need to step down and all this stuff right partly because I think there's a function for like decision making and operations that should be passed on.

It's kind of like when you know where like the apostles were like hey you guys just focus on this thing >> let others you know who are gifted and you know like like take care of kind of like the operations of care right but when you were sharing what I realized was missing from like like SF and maybe like the young leaders of of of uh you know EPA and Fremont is the injection of DNA right is like when you do like these types of talks, you know, it injects like fresh like DNA of vision, you know, into like like groups.

And I think that's the thing that's been lost a lot. You know, when we des, you know, we had like our pastors training all at bullies, >> it was almost like if we we got the DNA right, you know, even if they made bad operational decisions, >> it was like, okay, you know, it's fine.

They'll just fix it, you know. >> Yeah. But uh at least like they're moving out with the right thinking even if they just make they they they have the right thinking. Right now you know we're like okay we don't invest any in like kind of like the vision anymore because it was done 10 years ago and now it's like about like which guy goes to which house church what should we do about this thing here?

How what time should we turn off the lights? you know, like like that's the entirety of like our whatever time with the pastor is, you know, problem solving. And I'm like, >> they can we got to like raise up these like young leaders to like they can figure out and make wise decisions and then those who can impart DNA should just exclusively do that >> and then we should just gather together, right? just have a time where we're like together.

Uh uh we're like hearing the same thing, praying through the same thing, coming out with the same like picture and vision. And then out out from there, San Francisco or Fremont can make the necessary decisions they want about all sorts of different things, right? >> Uh but I think you're we're missing the foundation. >> Yeah.

Like I said, I feel like it was a spiritual experience with the Lord where I just had that outline, you know, I just wrote it and then I'm like, "Oh, wow to apostles teaching where, you know, the supernatural like it was just okay. I don't exactly, you know, put a few verses on a piece of paper like oh yeah, there's my notes for Sunday morning." you know, it's like, okay, I got it.

And let's get up there and all right, that was of the Lord. Um, and that's my spiritual I think it was a spiritual download and gift. And so you go, wow, that was good. It's like, well, I that's the way it should work. But now it's really just for everyone to have that imagination and almost not copy this.

Okay. Well, now now I want a sermon. It's like, well, that's not going to be your spiritual gift probably. Um, it's just out of love. What is it? And that even when I was at Pepperdine, they were filming some goofy video. Some guy was trying to talk about trying to figure out God's purpose in life and asked me, "Okay, what is my purpose?

What is my purpose?" And I'm like, but I was like, you don't find your purpose by sitting on the beach asking God, what is the purpose of my life? It's by looking at the people right in front of you, trying to love them in some significant way, in the most meaningful way possible.

And then the Holy Spirit gives you a gift for that individual, a blessing for that individual, a prayer, a passage, whatever it is. I don't even know. >> But then as you do that, you realize, oh, that's my spiritual gift. It comes out of love, not from everyone wants to sit and figure out, God, what did you create me for?

I said you don't find that by sitting in isolation. It's by serving and loving and and then supernaturally things come together that