The Fear of Man vs. Living as God’s Beloved | Francis Chan & Lecrae

I feel like if the Apostle Paul or Jesus had a church in Seami Valley, mine would be bigger. >> And that is bothering me. >> Like you had a mega church in Southern California. You had sold crazy amounts of books. >> Everyone was doing your Bible studies, your DVDs.

Then one day you walked away from it. It was so easy for me all those years to say, "I love God. I love God. I'm going do these crazy things for God, but is much harder to go. He is crazy about me. That is the social media sound bite of the century. 50 years old.

I've been preaching since I was 22, whatever. And I'm still only 90ome% sure I'm going to heaven because God's shown me some things these last few years. >> Yeah. >> That I think are big. Really big. Can we talk about some of them? >> Yes. >> What are some of these things? >> It's mainly one thing. >> This is the deep end with LRA. >> Everyone out there.

Uh I'm extremely excited about this because obviously every time I'm on the deep end, I'm talking to interesting people. Some I've never met, some I have. um or few have um been people that I really felt challenged by throughout the years. And uh one of such few is with us today.

Uh how you know him, I don't know, maybe you've read his books, maybe you've heard his sermons, maybe you've been to conferences and and heard him speak. Maybe you haven't heard of him because you're Gen Z and you don't know uh about what's going on with him, but uh I want to introduce to some and reintroduce to others. >> Francis Chad, thanks.

Good to be with you. >> Absolutely. >> It's been way too long. >> Been forever as we we were talking about. I can't even remember the last time we connected. >> Yeah. And >> I think you like called me or texted me once. >> Yes. >> And hey, friends, is your number?

Yes. And I never heard back. I may have something in mind and then I and then I forgot. That's right. I was like, "Yeah, I mean, you know, >> I was just good that you remembered me." >> Oh, come on, man. Come on, man. Yeah. Um, it's funny because like I mean early mid 2000s I feel like.

Um, we just we were in a lot of the same rooms, same circles, same spaces. >> And uh, and I, it was funny because prior to being in some of those same rooms with you, I was just a believer downloading your sermons. >> You know what I mean?

I I had read Crazy Love. Yeah. And um and then was just listening to some of your sermons and I found them refreshing and one which I'm I'm sure you know went extremely viral and I've used it on my kids. I almost reinvented it. I almost redid it one Sunday at church, but I didn't cuz it I it was just like >> it was too much rope. >> So So obviously I'm talking about the rope illustration. >> Yeah.

But I'm just curious like like can you revisit like what was go like your thought process in that analogy and like what was the heart behind that? >> Yeah. Well, you know, actually the first time I did it, I was like 21. I was a youth pastor and I remember because you remember when you might not you may not be old enough but printer paper used to come in little rolls.

Remember that with the little circles on the end? Yeah. I had this thing going all the way around the room and just the first little sliver was red and and that was how I use the illustration. I go see that red part that's your time on Earth. I was teaching these high school students and then comes millions and millions of years like what are you doing during this tiny sliver of time?

It's going to affect all of your eternity. Mhm. >> And that stuff was always ingrained in me. I think you know how some people just catch on to certain themes in the Bible then >> just because it's natural. I guess because my mom died giving birth to me and then my stepmom died when I was seven.

Then my dad died when I was 12. So, I was always thinking, man, I don't know when this is going to end, and this could be my last day. This could be my last talk. >> I I seriously think that right now. And so, I don't want to waste time.

I don't want to just >> I don't know. I don't want to hold back on anything. >> And I've kind of lived my life that way >> ever since I was a teenager. That's crazy to think like a teenager wrestling with eternity. >> Yeah. >> Like but you had to. >> Yeah.

Because when you see your mom and dad buried, you just start thinking, "Okay, where are they now?" That's pretty terrifying. You watch their body go in the ground >> and you just go, "Okay, when's it my turn?" And three parents die by the time I'm in middle school. uh like and I know you've talked about that before, but like that has the potential to cause people to fold inward and like run away from God.

Yeah. >> And your story is unique in that that wasn't your reality. >> Yeah. It more uh made me curious like what happens after this life >> because I don't know how much longer I have here. >> You did you assume you were next? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I remember one time it was at one of those passion conferences and I was 40.

I turned 40 and I thought I did not think I'd make it this long. I seriously So then it was like I'm just going to say everything cuz I don't know how much longer I have. Seriously. And uh but that's the way I lived my life and I'm so grateful. >> Yeah. >> Because you just make the most of everything. >> Yeah. you you have a tendency I I think you like that actually explains a lot about you in terms of like >> historically you just sharing so passionately in the moment because it's like hey this could be it like this could be >> and so you've never like minced words you've always been like listen you can die or yeah >> listen you're you're you're walking on this balance beam what are you going to just hold on and like >> um and a couple years ago So there was an interview you did where you were talking about one of the crisises in the church today.

It was like a couple years ago and you said like speaking directly to matters and problems. >> Yes. >> Was like a crisis in the church. And just knowing like you started off in the '9s and it wasn't that way before. >> Like what do you feel like changed? uh uh everyone has a platform now.

Anyone could create their own platform. >> Like back in the 80s and 90s, you don't have a voice unless you actually do something. >> So very few people had voices. >> And now it's like anyone can have a voice. any teenager can create their own platform, make a intriguing enough video that suddenly they have all these followers.

And so it's also a time where everything that you say is scrutinized and can be publicly um blasted >> and uh it wasn't always that way. So I think leaders, including myself, >> you you get so much feedback on everything you say. Even me being on the show, I don't know what your issues are, but you probably have some.

And someone's going to say, "Oh, Francis went on the Christ show, so he's one of these or one of those, you know, and you didn't have that before." >> Yep. You just lived life and you lived in the moment and you you listened. You learned from one another and and you can actually process it.

You weren't so worried about I got about 12,000 people that'll cancel me because of that statement. There's another 100,000 because I was with this person. >> Uh and so then you start going, gosh, what do I say? What do I say? Because I don't want to get all this feedback.

And then pretty soon you're you're speaking to not get criticism. >> Yep. >> Rather than just saying, "Hey, what does the Bible say? What how would Jesus say this?" And I don't want to back off on that. >> Um that's hard to do. Uh but for me, I I do think about dying.

I do think, okay, this could be my last talk, so I am not going to back off because I could be in front of him any second. I could be before the throne tonight. So, God, keep me from being afraid, uh, worried about my reputation, and let me just say anything and I'll I'll take the >> I'll get canceled, I'll get hated, I'll get whatever, but I don't want to be afraid of saying whatever you tell me to say.

So, is it do you think like obviously and I I mean I'm I'm throwing myself in the bucket as well like there's a fear of man that a lot of >> people in the public space wrestle with. >> Yes. >> And and if you're if you're speaking to >> a young leader or someone who's coming up in this era where it's like, "Oh, don't say that because this and don't say that because this or you'll lose this or >> you'll lose that."

What's the encouragement that or like the the challenge you give them in that? Like obviously like you said it's like hey this is what the scripture says but I'm just curious from your vantage point. >> Yeah. I just remind them of >> like read the Bible like all of the prophets were so unpopular but they said it and they were hated and they were killed.

And then Jesus went right in line with the, you know, the prophets and said, "I will say whatever the father tells me to say." >> And the apostle Paul, Stephen, whoever, you know, that they all got killed and and you got to be okay with that. >> Otherwise, why do you why are you even talking, >> you know, like we're supposed to speak for God? >> Yeah.

Jesus could have had way more followers if he toned down his message. All of the prophets could have had more followers. And so nowadays, when your worth is based upon how many followers you have, you're just tempted to say whatever will keep people coming. >> But you know, Jesus preached like in John 6 and he had thousands of people and he's left with a dozen.

Mhm. >> They all walk away from him. >> And so you got to go, well, that's my role model and I want to end my life coming before God and said, I tried my best uh to not be afraid of people, not have any selfish ambition. I just wanted to be like your son. >> Yeah. >> I just wanted to be like him.

So I like it's interesting because I've been around for multiple eras. >> Yeah. >> And and you're right as you as you're talking about it. thinking through I'm like oh you are right like like I never considered the the you know you can just say this and and they're thinking about what will I lose but also I think we live in this vacuum of social media online where >> it's not really real life but we assume it is in a lot of ways. >> Yeah.

And so someone could could just hear what you're saying now and say he doesn't know. Yeah. >> Right. Oh, >> of course. >> And and I remember I remember you like you had a mega church >> in in Southern California. You had >> sold crazy amounts of books. >> Yeah. >> Uh everyone was doing your your Bible studies, your DVDs.

People kids DVDs are these things you watch. It's amazing. That's right. >> But then one day you just said you walked away from it. >> Yeah. >> Right. And and I'm not saying that you did that because of what you're talking about, but I'm interest I'm interested like >> Yeah. >> Was it clarity?

Was it conviction? Was it like restlessness? Like what what were you processing in that time period? >> There were a few things. I remember one night telling my wife cuz I had a church in Seami Valley >> and one night I just looked at her and a thought came I go honey I feel like if the Apostle Paul or Jesus had a church in Seami Valley mine would be bigger >> and that is bothering me.

I would have a bigger church than Jesus cuz I know how to keep a crowd. They didn't. M >> and so you start realizing, well, am I really being like Christ? And then as I'm looking in the scriptures and I'm looking at, okay, what's commanded? Like if God could have anything of a church, what what is the main thing in scripture and and there was such a emphasis in the New Testament on loving one another as much as Christ loved us. >> That's how much like like Like, do I really care about you? >> Yeah. >> Like, genuinely, it's great.

We can be on a show. We can be friends. Give each other a hug. See you in five years. But do I really genuinely love you? Like Jesus loved the church. >> Yeah. >> To where I go, look, anything. I'll give you the shirt off my back, whatever you need.

Like, that's what he wanted. >> And so, I'm like, that's not what I created. I got a bunch of people, thousands of people. We're playing churches. we got caught, you know, podcast is going crazy, but are we loving each other like that? >> Mhm. >> And then the other thing was he says everyone in that church has a supernatural gift for the body. >> Mhm. >> And I'm thinking, okay, if I got 5,000 people with supernatural Holy Spirit, like God is in them, either speaking through them, healing through whatever it is, M >> there's 5,000 people with some sort of gift and I don't know any of these gifts >> and they're not being used in the church.

So I was like, "Okay, Lord, I I need to be obedient >> above all things." And so if you want us to love one another, I don't know how to do it in this giant room. If you want everyone using their gift, I don't know how to do that in a giant room. >> Mhm.

So, I've got to figure out ways to have that happen and release all of these people. So, it's kind of it wasn't like one thing. It was like this perfect storm of all these truths of scripture coming to my mind and I'm going, gosh, Lord, all I want to do is be faithful to your word >> and do whatever it says.

I can let go of the numbers. I can let go of the fame, the money, everything else. Um, I want to please you though. >> And so that's that's that's where I I tried to change the church. I didn't know how. I finally thought I think I'm causing more problems than uh than I'm helping the church. >> So >> that's when I decided, you know, let me step away and maybe get my thoughts together and maybe create something different. >> Yeah. >> Some some people would look at that you know, as like idealism >> or say, "Oh, he's idealistic.

You're not going to change it all and >> you might as well deal with what's in front of you." Or some people may say >> that's his personality type or something along those lines. Um, I guess like over the years, you know, after all of that, like hindsight, do you feel like you made the right decision? >> Yeah, there were so many signs that I I wouldn't have I would have felt so unfaithful >> if I didn't make the switch.

Um, now there was some idealism, you know, in my head. I thought this will be easy. They do it in China. There's a 100 million of them in house churches. So, hey, this is going to be millions of people. And you realize, yeah, this this is not easy. >> Um, but I have peace. >> Mhm. >> And that's where before I didn't have peace. >> Okay.

So it may not look as successful having a bunch of homes everywhere with, you know, small groups that are loving each other and different people using their gifts, but I feel peace about it. Yeah. I feel like know I really love these people >> and they genuinely love me and these relationships are deep >> and a lot of them are using their spiritual gifts and so I I love it there.

I not going to lie there are days when I think gosh I really am more gifted to be in front of a crowd >> and just teach. >> Um you just look at natural gifting. >> Yeah. Um, I'm better as a megaurch pastor. >> And who knows, I may go back to it someday.

But >> I go, right now, this is the peace that I have. And I believe this is the future. >> Yeah. >> Um, it is getting harder and harder for these guys with the big churches. >> You know, a lot of them are good friends of mine and they're miserable. >> Yeah. >> And it's just uh it's a tough time to shepherd the big thing.

Mhm. Yeah. I'm I'm like it seems like just hearing you talk it seems like you would be the person who if the limelight and the spotlight is on you. It it seems like there's more of a internal battle of uh I don't want that. Mhm. >> Um whereas >> there's certain pastors who be like, "Praise God, the the Lord put this light on me.

I get to shine bright out here." >> And I'm like, "What's the tension there?" How How do you process that? >> Yeah. because I yeah it's it's tough because there are times when I feel like I'm called go ahead get in front of the crowd get in the stadium you know don't be afraid just deliver it and and then there's other seasons when I feel like he's saying back off and I mean the number one thing is my heart >> is like before God why am I doing this >> is it do I want to increase my popularity Mhm. >> Um or am I trying to be faith?

Because I also don't want to run from something >> that God has called me to, >> right? >> It's just there's so many traps with the spotlight. You get so much feedback that you either get arrogant or you get angry or bitter or I mean there's just it's no one is >> you're telling my story, >> right?

Yeah. It's like I'm either going to go one way or the other. And I uh so my rhythm has been, okay, sometimes the Lord's going to call me to it. I got to go. I got to get my heart right. >> I I try really hard to imagine God on his throne right above the crowd and just going, "Okay, I might see you soon.

I might literally be in your presence. Let me say everything. and God, I I want to enjoy you speaking through me. Believe it's the spirit. Um then other times I just think he's saying, "Okay, just go away. Go pray. It's just as effective or more. Dig deep with your disciples.

Get out of the limelight." >> I don't know. I I kind I I really do. Not kind of. I really like what you said about like there's 5,000 people and I don't know their gifts. >> Yeah. I think that's powerful. And and to be frank, it's one of the reasons why everyone would say like, "Oh man, you have a voice.

You should be a pastor. You should be a pastor." And I and I've always shun that. I said, "I think you think I should be a teacher. I don't mind being a teacher." >> Yeah. >> I think I'm gifted at teaching, >> but but shephering people Yeah. >> is is that's a lot of responsibility and that's a lot of weight. >> And I always wrestle with that.

But then I I also hear people's arguments often of like because you know well you got to remember like at the day of Pentecost 3,000 people came to the Lord. There's nothing wrong with numbers. There's nothing wrong with that. >> Um >> but I guess I'm like at the same time there may be 3,000 people >> praising bow somewhere.

You know what I mean? So I like how do I don't know if you have a thought on that. How do we make sense of are numbers a God thing or just a reality of >> Yeah. I mean, I really don't think it's about numbers. >> Okay. >> I really think it's about uh obedience.

And if I knew how to gather 10,000 people and truly have them love one another and all exercise their gifts, then I would do it. >> Mhm. but I don't know how to do it. Um, and and I don't know. It's I I when I left Cornerstone, I mean, I I I just go I wasn't saying that this is bad. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. It's just I don't know how to get that many people obedient >> to his word and prioritize the things that he wants prioritized, >> right? >> And I had created something that they were just so accustomed to. >> It's almost like if I opened a a movie theater that people have been coming to for 15 years and then I show up one day, I go, "Ah, movies aren't good for you.

Let's do CrossFit." Then now they're like, "Wait, we've been coming here listening forever and now you're trying to get us all to exercise, >> right? >> This is not what we signed up for." >> That's a good analogy. >> You know, and I'm like, "It's true." I mean, I was pastor there for 16 and a half years. >> Oh, wow. >> So, it's a long time.

Yeah. >> And so, for 15 of those years, that really is what they did. And I loved it. It was like, "Yeah, this is my gift. Let's do it." And then I just got more and more convicted about these scriptures. And I'm and I've just always been one of those people where I can't live with myself if I know there's something that is commanded and I'm not even trying. >> Like I I'm not even going after it. >> Um >> I can't I can't sleep.

Do you think there's a a I don't know if you even can see that or if you're even tuned in, but do you see younger versions of you out there today? Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, you know, it it's it's it's it's weird because I do feel bad about um I don't know, like I could I I think of my younger self and the old Francis Chan could look very rebellious like I'm not going to do it the way everyone else does it and and in a lot of ways making decision visions on my own. >> Um, and rather than really in community with the elders, with the leaders, um, and believe me, I'm one part of that.

And I just saw myself as this voice, um, rather than a part of a body. Uh, I just was doing my thing. >> And I don't know, I don't think it was bad motives necessarily. It's just I didn't get the whole picture. >> Yeah. >> I didn't understand the unity of the body. >> Yeah.

That's good. That's that's that's challenging. I'm like, and I'm not a pastor, but I I'm processing my own life and thinking through like >> some of the things that I've done and and looking back, seeing younger artists and younger people and just like >> wrestling with some of that.

Um, I mean, I I I think for me, one of the things that I think I did a lot of early on was just say yes to everything. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. I'll do it. Yes, I'll go. Yes, I'll yes. Yes. Yes. Send me. Lord, I'll go. I'll go.

I'll go. >> And now I look back and I'm like, uh, I may have said yes too much. And I I wondered like for a pastor and then a a speaker at other places, do you feel like you had said yes too much? I don't really have that many regrets, okay, of going and trying and exhausting myself at times.

And >> it was great, >> you know. I mean, it was it was >> like a a rock star from the old days like, yeah, it was fun back then, but it was and and if the Lord really wanted me to do it, I mean, I still travel quite a bit. >> Yeah.

I took like two years where I didn't do much and and now it's ramping back up again. I'm like, "Okay, okay, whatever you want me to say." Because I do believe like God's given me some message. Like I haven't done a podcast in forever. >> Yeah. >> Okay.

Uh but my team's like, "You've got a message that we really feel like you need to get out there." >> And so cuz I think I said no to you. >> You didn't say no to your team. >> You said no to my team. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I would took it personally and then I would not play it. >> Yeah, cuz and then my team was like, "Hey, I want you to reconsider, you know, a couple of these." >> Thank you, team. >> Yeah.

Because I think there's some things because God's shown me some things these last few years. >> Yeah. >> That I think are big. Um really big. And >> can we talk about some of them? >> Yes. Yes. What are some of these things? >> It's it's mainly one thing.

Okay. >> Okay. When I was 50, I So, seven years ago, almost eight years ago, I told my wife, I go, I was reading First John 4, and it talks about how perfect love casts out all fear. And if you have fear, your love hasn't been perfected. >> And I said, I'm still a little bit insecure in my relationship with God.

I'm 50 years old. I've been preaching since I was 22, whatever, and I'm still only 90 something% sure I'm going to heaven. There's a part of me that's going, uh, my love hasn't been perfected. I've spent my whole life like almost trying to prove to God that I love him.

I will do this. I'll sacrifice anything. I don't need any money. I don't need any of this. You know, it was all cuz I love Jesus. And I do. >> And but it was like this. I want to prove that he's Lord of my life. I want to prove it to him.

I want to prove it to myself. I mean, it goes all the way back to college in seminary when I first understood the lordship of Christ and lordship salvation. I thought, man, I don't know if he's Lord in my life. Why did I lust this week? Why am I struggling so much? he must not be Lord.

And you know, we were just taught to, you know, judge others. I don't know if that guy's saved. I don't know if that guy's saved. I don't know if I'm saved. Judge yourself. And you just get in this pattern. And And so a lot of stuff I did for years.

I mean, I I believe I was a believer loved by God. I just didn't know it. I'm still like >> I'm trying to earn his love somehow. And and I realized it was so easy for me all those years to say, "I love God. I love God. I'm going do these crazy things for God."

But is much harder to go, he is crazy about me. >> I am so loved by him. I don't know if it was my upbringing, schooling, whatever, but I was 90% sure that he loved me. And I remember just telling my wife, I can't live like this anymore.

I'm going to just tell the church, gather them together for my birthday, and all I'm going to ask is that they pray that this is the year all insecurities gone. And I'm sure that he loves me. And as I've been talking about that recently, it has blown my mind how many believers wrestle with this.

How many pastors wrestle with this? >> I just did a pastor's thing two weeks ago. >> I said, "How many of you are only like 80% sure that you are loved by Jesus?" >> And I would say 70 to 80% stood up of pastors. And it just broke my heart. >> I'm like, the enemy has so messed us.

I mean, can you imagine if your kids were only 80% sure you love them? >> That's crazy to think about. >> And now you imagine God, the perfect father, and he has a church full of kids that aren't sure that he loves them and they're loved by him.

They're like 80% and, you know, partially I don't know. I don't know if I've done enough. I I I I I might be going to hell because I don't know if he's Lord of every area of my life. And like if if our chief aim is to glorify him and to enjoy him, >> how do you enjoy a God that you're kind of sure he loves you >> rather than this is supposed to be the foundation?

We're so like we're we can be sitting here doing that. If we weren't doing this podcast, I could just sit here and know that almighty God is looking down at his son and going, "Oh, I can't wait till he gets up here. I desire him. >> That was not me."

And I I have a fear uh maybe fear is not the right word, a concern that because I was like that for so many years, then those who follow me, it's going to come across >> however you are as a parent, you know, as a person is going to come out to your kids. >> Yeah.

And in the same way, who I am as a pastor, it's going to impact my congregation. Kind of like when Jesus said to the Pharisees >> in Matthew, I think it's 23:15 or 16, he says >> to the Pharisees, you you go over land and sea to make a convert.

But once they convert, you make them twice the son of hell you are. >> And I think, gosh, if I was that insecure, then in my teaching, I probably made other people insecure. M >> if I was so focused on my actions rather than his, then I probably helped lead a generation that's focused on their actions rather than his. >> Yeah. >> And I got to rectify that.

I've got to teach that. I got to help people really understand how much God loves them. M >> I mean I mean just let me ask you like if I could stand before his throne cuz so right now there's a holy God in heaven. >> Yeah. >> Glory like we can't even understand. >> We can't even look at him we would die. >> Mhm. >> And a 100 million angels just the sound of one angel makes the ground shake. 100 million just screaming out his and if I could come before that almighty God right now and if I were to say to him, God, what do you feel towards LRA right now?

What do you think he'd say? Well, I I like you am always well like your 50-year-old self in battling that I know the truth right I know what Zephaniah 3:17 says that he >> delights he sings over me I know that >> but knowing that and believing that and trusting that are like two different things. >> Yeah.

And so I think it's I'm I'm so glad you're saying this. >> Yeah. >> Because it's it's a reality that I think even if someone can say they know they don't believe. >> Yeah. >> I I I believe without a shadow of a doubt my mom >> loves me. >> There's nothing you could say about that.

Yes. I I know 100% sure. >> Yeah. That's my point. >> 100% sure. >> Yeah. >> I want to know. >> Yes. >> That God feels that way. And that's >> See, it's crazy. >> And and imagine how he feels. >> That's a That's tough. >> Like look, you know, >> Yeah. >> doesn't know that I love He's not sure. >> Francis, he doesn't >> Yeah. you you know like I know that you and I don't question his holiness or his power or his knowledge.

Like you don't you don't dare go I think I know more than him. >> Yeah. >> Or I think I can do things he can't do. >> Yeah. >> But there's a part of you that's like I'm more confident in my love for my kids than in his love for me.

So why is it that when it comes to his love, we treat it different when he says, "I am love." >> And and if we believe in the cross and we go, "No, I do. I confess with my mouth, Jesus is my Lord and I believe in my heart.

God raised him from the dead. I'm a child of God. >> So why these doubts? How is the enemy getting in my head to where? Because if we are just confident of his love. >> Mhm. >> We just won't fear anything. >> That's what I was I was thinking that I was thinking >> who cares? >> Fear is the and to it's like the lack of love breeds fear. >> Yeah.

And so I'm I'm even as you're talking like I'm curious your thoughts on this like um like the reality of being loved by God for us is still conditional, right? Like I I think what it is is somewhere in the back of my brain >> because humans are conditional >> Yeah. that God is and I know he I know what the scriptures say.

I know what my theology says. I get that. But >> I don't know if that has penetrated my heart in the same way. >> And I'm I'm curious like if you like do you think we're conditioned that way just because society makes you earn everything or what do you think? >> Well, I mean I know for me Okay.

So when I was born, my dad didn't want me >> because you just killed my wife. Um he gave me up for adoption and my grandma took me away to Hong Kong because she I mean he had it all set up like there was a lady who's going to adopt me like that's he clearly did not want me. >> Mhm.

And so she took me away and then I think she got too old and so when I was like five she made him take me back and he didn't want me like me >> and he treated me different from my brother and sister and I mean it was just >> you're unwanted person >> and so you're just striving to earn his approval somehow. >> Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. >> Whether grades, anything, but you're just always failing. >> And you're not really earning as love. >> Mhm. >> You're just earning some approval. >> Yeah. >> Cuz love, it's like when your child was born. >> It was just there. >> Yeah. >> You just felt it.

You're like, I don't know why I feel so much emotion for this. >> Mhm. >> Doesn't talk to me. It doesn't whatever. It's a me, but I love her. You know, that's love. Everything else is like earning people's approval. But sometimes when we've never been loved, we we're good enough with approval or we don't know the difference. >> You know, hey, look, the people love me, you know, and it's like, no, they approve of what you're doing. >> And so, we kind of grow up with that.

And then it's hard to believe in a God who says, "No, I loved you." >> Yeah. at your worst >> and I came after you >> and I sent my son to die for you when you were at your worst. So how much more now that you're a child of God >> Yeah. >> do I love you?

It's just but but some of it and here's the thing that I'm realizing. Okay. Cuz like at that 50th birthday, my uh my staff, they they just signed people up to fast and pray for a different day every day for the rest of the year. Um so they gave me a calendar.

This is who's fasting and praying for you today >> that you'd be totally secure in God's love. >> It's there's a supernatural side to it. So even right now, I can be talking to an audience and go, "Oh man, I know what to say to make you know that you're loved by God."

Yeah, >> but it doesn't work that way because that's why Paul says in Ephesians uh 1 and when he's praying for them, I'm praying that God enlightens the eyes of your heart. >> Mhm. >> So that you would know the hope to which you've been called and you would know his glorious inheritance in the saints like how he's looking at you as his glorious inheritance.

I'm praying that the eyes of your heart would be enlightened. Mhm. >> And then in chapter three, he says, "This is why I get on my knees because I'm asking God to just grant you strength." >> Yeah. >> You know, by the Holy Spirit in your inner being so that Christ may dwell in your heart >> so he can just live there so that you would know the love of Christ.

You'd be rooted and grounded in love and you'd know how wide and long and high and deep. He's like, "I'm on my knees praying for this." And he's talking to the Ephesians who in chapter one he says to the faithful in Christ Jesus. >> And then in chapter three he goes, "I'm on my knees praying for you >> that God would just grant you." >> Yeah. >> So that Christ could dwell there >> and you would just be rooted in love and you would know how wide and long and high.

And so it's this miraculous like Romans 5:5 says that that the Holy Spirit pours the love of God into our hearts. Yeah. >> Like there's like it's not >> oh Lra was you know executing something explain to me and now I >> now I get it. >> Now I know Jesus loves me. >> Oh thank you. >> Yeah.

Now the teaching is necessary. >> Sure. Sure. Sure. But the miracle >> for people who are listening who grew up being rejected and trying to earn everything. >> Uh there's a supernatural element to this >> that >> only the Holy Spirit can do. >> That's my story as well. >> Same thing.

I think that's a large part of it. I I had a mental breakdown >> really >> in about in like 2018. >> Wow. And um and I and I and I look back at my notes >> when I was writing it down because God had to literally carry me through that time period >> and I was mad at myself >> because I felt like I failed God, right? >> And I remember writing in there, I'm more devoted to my devotion >> than I am to God. meaning that my whole Christian journey was about my >> my devotion.

Yeah. >> What am I doing? >> And it was like >> I'm not devoted to a God who loves me. And like like I'm devoted to the things that I do for the God who loves me. And but but that's and so I mean I I I haven't even told this publicly, but it it got so bad in 2018.

I went to the hospital. >> Yeah. >> And I I was like I was freaking out and I was like, "Yo, I'm I'm I'm freaking out." And um I don't know. I can't make it stop. My brain is racing. I'm having a mental breakdown. And um I'm laying in this hospital bed and I guess I'm near like the psych psychiatric unit or ward or whatnot.

And as I'm laying in the bed, someone gets out of their room and runs over and jumps on my bed. This guy, he had mental issues. So it's like 4 in the morning. This dude is jumping on my bed screaming and my brain is already destroyed. And now there's a guy on top of me screaming and I'm just in and then they get him out and I'm just in this dark place.

I'm just like, whoa. >> I'm like, God, what are you doing to me? Why are you letting all this happened to me? I just maybe I failed. I you know, I was going off the deep end. I'm not living the way I should be living. And I don't know.

I just I don't know what's going on. >> And the janitor comes by and I'm sitting up reading my Bible because it's like 4 in the morning and I'm just freaked out. And the janitor comes by and he says, "You reading the Bible?" And I said, "Yeah." He says, "You check out Zephaniah 3:17." >> And that was the first time I'd ever heard that verse where it said, "The God delights in me." >> Yeah. >> And I was like, "Not me." >> Yes, I know. >> We're in the same world that I mean, we were in the same world and there was such an emphasis.

I mean, when I hear your story, like I I got I got a little tearary because I'm just going, God, that's not the way you want your kids living. >> Yeah. >> And somehow the system we were in >> bred that. >> Rather than what Paul says like the love of Christ compels me. >> Like I am so incredibly loved that I got to do something.

That's not the way we were thinking. >> It was almost like I got to do all this stuff so that I'll be loved. >> Yes. >> It's and it's like >> uh it's the opposite of first John 4. Like we love because he first loved us. >> It's like no, if I love him enough, then he'll love me back. >> And it's so demonic.

It's satanic. We have to start with this love. M >> it has to be. So, so I just and I'm not plugging a book or anything, but my daughter I just wrote a book and it's called Beloved. Um because it's it's based upon John the disciple who I never understood.

I never got into him because he he would write I think five times this is the disciple whom Jesus loved. >> The love Yes. >> I'm the disciple whom Jesus loved. Like that's weird. >> Yeah. >> What if Peter reads that? what you know like >> I'm the one he loves. >> Yes.

It's like if one of your kids goes I'm the beloved child. It was just a weird thing. I thought it was arrogant. >> Um and I just didn't get into John. I I loved Elijah. I love Paul. I love sacrifice. Great things. And John just put my head on your chest.

You know, it's just it was like that's it, you know, and you're the beloved disciple. And and it came to a point where I realized, wow, I used to think if I could do anything in scripture, it'd be Elijah on Mount Carmel or, you know, some one of Moses's miracles or, you know, whatever it is or being in the, you know, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, you know.

But now I go, if I could do anything that I see in scripture, it would be what John did when he laid his head on Jesus's chest. He had his head on the chest of the judge of the universe. And he knew he's okay with this. >> He loves me.

He told us that as much as the father loves the son, that's how much he loves me. >> So I can do this. And can you imagine if right now Jesus was here and you had your head on his chest and you knew he loved you like you said the way you know your mom loves you like >> the king, the creator, the judge.

That's what I want. >> And I never even noticed that word beloved is two words. Be loved. That means I can just sit here and be loved. I don't have to earn it. I just It's so passive. Like God, I don't have to do something for him to love me back. >> I can just right now go, he loves me.

And And John was not being arrogant. He believed the word of God. Yeah, >> he believed what Jesus said. That's why he's the one that wrote that. Oh, just as the fathers loved me. He knew it. >> And then he calls his disciples like in first John 4, he goes, "Beloved, beloved, let us love one another.

Beloved, it it wasn't just like I'm the only one that's beloved." He wanted us to be identified by that. >> That was his identity. And for so much of my life, I wanted to be this or this. I want to be that radical Christian that would give away everything.

Look, Francis gave everything up. He really loves him. He'll sacrifice anything. Like, he has I wanted to be known for integrity. This, this, this. And now it's like, wow, I just want everyone to know that I am loved by him. And that's all I want to be known for.

M >> I used to think that God made me to be a prophet on the earth. No, he made me because he wanted another object to pour his grace upon and his love on >> because the Bible says he's abounding in steadfast love. So it's just like pouring.

It's b abounding. It's pouring out. That's who he is as a being. He's rich in mercy and he's like, I got to forgive someone. All the cray he needs forgiveness. Oh, good. Good. Good. He's asking for here, here, here. I'm abounding in steadfast love. Who wants to be loved by me?

Oh, you want to be loved by me? Cuz that's who I am. And and so it's all about us believing his love. And it's really what's amazing to me is >> it's counterintuitive, but the more I've believed his love, the more holy of a life I've lived. >> I agree.

And that's that doesn't make sense. In fact, okay, it's okay. Am I talking too much? >> No, because you're you're on the nose. >> Okay. Okay. One of my elders said one day, he goes, I realized I was we're teaching through Romans. He goes, I didn't want to teach Romans 8:1 that there's no condemnation.

He goes, cuz I I thought if they know they're not condemned, then they'll just run rampant with their sin. But I almost wanted to keep them insecure because I thought the insecurity would create results. And that's what I did. He was a consultant. He was a business consultant for the biggest, you know, consulting firm.

And he's made fortune. He says, "And what we teach CEOs, everyone else, we're paid a fortune to tell them the people you want to hire are insecure overachievers." And you get an insecure overachiever and tell them they did something wrong, they're going to you're going to increase production >> so much.

And it works. >> You get people that are, "Oh, shoot. The boss told me that I I was failing in this." So they go overboard. >> Like it creates action. It creates results. And he goes, "I realize I was taking that into ministry." Like, "Oh, shoot. I want my people insecure so they'll work harder at holiness and get rid of the porn, get rid of the lust, get rid whatever it may be.

Like I actually wanted them insecure. >> And that's evil. >> That's so wrong. But I was afraid. And I think there are a lot of pastors who do this. >> Yeah. >> Um unknowingly. Um, but we're after this result. >> Mhm. >> And we don't realize No, you'd actually get greater results once a person knows how much they're loved. >> Yeah, that's what I was going to ask you. >> I I was >> It's weird, but it's true. >> How like >> like what because you said pastors don't even realize Yeah. they're loved by God.

Yeah. And I and I think like you said, we we're coming from a world where it's piety. It's like like you do it and it and >> how like what are you >> like the the the tension or or I will say like the push back somebody may give you similar to what he was afraid of is >> well love tells the truth. >> Yes.

Love is firm. >> Totally. >> And I just feel like this is this sounds seeker sensitive. >> I know. >> Totally. Totally. I get it. And I and one thing I will say is there are times when you don't have peace in your relationship with God. >> And that's actually a good thing. >> That's what the Holy Spirit is supposed to do in us.

So, I'm not saying anytime you feel conviction, um, blow it off. You're loved. >> Yeah. >> But I am saying, no, you are loved. But that conviction you feel, praise God for that conviction because the Bible says he makes you a slave to righteousness. >> See, this is something I learned, too, is that lordship was this thing where I was like trying to get it and make him lord.

I didn't realize lordship is actually a free gift. So in other words, God says, "I'll actually come into you and make you want all the things that I want." >> Mhm. >> It's like seriously cuz I know where my sin will lead me. It'll lead me to death.

And I believe your commands will lead me to life. Mhm. >> So you're telling me you'll enter into me and make me desire the things that lead me to life >> and all for free. You'll come in as king, as Lord. Come in. >> Come in. Get me on that path.

I want that. Rather than this striving to make him Lord. It's like, no, that's the free gift. He loves me and says, I'll enter into you. M >> and make you desire what's right. >> Yeah. >> And make you a slave to righteousness. >> And so when you feel that lack of peace, >> praise God.

Yeah. I thank God now. >> Yeah. Like, oh, I don't feel good about that. Thank you, Lord. That's the Holy Spirit in me. Okay. Change me. >> Yeah. I I think a lot of it too is like the the when I think about my kids like and I think about them knowing that they're loved by me. >> They don't obey out of fear. >> Yeah.

They like they're excited to do things because we're collectively excited about it. Like my son or or not even excited about it like >> because they're like >> there's just a loving relationship. My son the other night, >> you know, we we had a little bit of a back and forth about some stuff >> and then he, you know, it felt like he got it, but I didn't know if he got it. felt like he understood, but I didn't know if he understood.

I didn't know if he was a little bit upset about it. I couldn't tell. >> And then I come in the kitchen and he's just washing the dishes. >> And I'm just like, who told him to do this? No one told him to do this. >> Yeah. But as we talked the next day, he was like, "Well, I don't want you to feel like I only do stuff so you you approve of it.

I just want this to be >> like a relationship." He didn't use the word relationship, but he was but essentially what he was trying to articulate was >> what he didn't say, but what he was trying to say was, I mean, we love each other and so >> why wouldn't I just I'm not going to hold a grudge.

I'm just going to go in there and serve and I you cooked. I'll clean. You didn't ask me to. And and I guess the the bigger point I'm I think of in that is that you do the right things because you're loved, not to earn love. But that's a foreign concept. >> It is. >> So, >> but I, you know, we we start to see it in our kids like where it's not fear anymore, right?

You're getting your kids are starting to get to that adult age. Yeah. you know, mine are already having kids and everything else. And, you know, there's there's no fear. There's there's no authority. And yet, three of my kids so far have said, you know, >> Dad, I trust you to pick my spouse for me.

Like, like, yeah. Like my two oldest daughters and my son just recently was like, yeah, I trust dad to find me a girl, pick me a girl. like like it's not it's like there's this trust there. So you had an arranged marriage. I I kind of did with my first one.

Not not really, but I met this guy that was in our ministry and I'm like I am blown away by this guy. And I remember my wife going, "Gosh, it's like you have a crush on him." I go, "I do. Like his walk with the Lord is amazing."

And and I prayed. I was like, "Lord, you have answered me in so many ways through life. >> You've always given me what I wanted." I was like, I see it in scripture, you know, with Jacob and Isaac. And I go, "This guy Justin, can I have him as a son-in-law?

Can you make him meet my daughter, fall in love?" And I prayed that prayer. They didn't even know each other. They were married within the year. >> You write that down. >> It was crazy. And now they've got three kids. And uh I I mean it's it's one of those things where >> it was beyond anything I ever would have dreamt cuz you know I always think no one's good enough for my little girl, >> you know, >> and then I meet this guy and I'm like, "Oh, he's >> he's good. >> Good enough."

And she better say yes. you know, but I and I I you know, and I he he called one day, asked if he could borrow, you know, one of my saws or whatever. I'm like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah." And I go, "I'm not home, but my daughter is." And and I call my daughter, "Honey, someone's coming over right now.

Trust your father. Look your best. Play with your hair. Do whatever you need to do. This is a good guy." And so, you know, he knocks on the door and she's like, "Hi, who are you?" You know, or whatever. What are you doing here? Oh, your dad uh said I could borrow a saw.

And she goes, "Oh, okay. Sorry, I just woke up." You know, and she's looking great, you know, but you know, the whole thing. And uh it's just it's amazing. Um but that's the relationship I have with my kids. >> Like they know I love them. They know I would do anything for them.

And like I asked earlier, if any of them were insecure, I would do everything >> to make that right. >> I've got to prove it to them somehow. I've got to convince them. And that's what I believe God is doing right now in heaven. >> I believe he's even right now >> going lra.

What do I need to do to have you completely secure? Look at everything I've done for you. But there is a miracle that I I want to pray for for you that God, I want that. That Ephesians 3, I want that. >> Not that you're pretty sure he loves you, but you know how wide and long and high and deep >> and you know the love of Christ, which is beyond comprehension.

M >> like that's what I want for you. That's what I want for everyone in the church. >> My first thought unfortunately when you said that was I'm a worm God. >> And it's so sad, >> isn't it? >> That's so sad. It's like h loves you. And I'm like oh no. >> But I I'm like no.

And I the funny thing you you bring this up. What I see consistently too now, especially with the younger generation in the church, is >> it's wrecked and racked by fear. >> Wrecked with fear and superstition and >> and if I don't do this, then this is going to happen and this is going to happen and that's going to happen and and >> and I'm like I'm like, "Oh, they don't know love." >> Yeah.

Because there's so much fear. >> Yeah, >> there's so much fear in like I mean I think I wrestle with more legalism. It was more like >> I got to earn God's love. >> But I think at least when I talk to my kids and I have conversations with them >> on their spiritual journeys, >> they get so much information on the internet and so much of it's not verifiable. you know, to be a speaker here, someone there, and they're just like, well, they said this and they said this and they said and I said, >> "God does not give you a spirit of fear."

And I and I like He loves you, but I'm saying it, but I'm like, "Man, I I'm sitting here listening to you and I'm like, >> I need to believe this." >> Yes. Yes. >> It's really >> No, seriously. But there is I I Let me grab my Bible real quick.

There's um >> Well, Francis pulling out the Bible now. >> I know. I know. It took me a long time. pastor I am. But uh my daughter actually pointed this passage out to me the other day about fear because obviously fear is not a bad thing. Yeah. >> The fear of the Lord's the beginning of wisdom.

We got to, you know, we work our salvation with fear and trembling. >> Um but I saw this passage. My daughter pointed it out the other day. I was like, "Wow, I I've missed this. How many times have I read this and never got it? Jeremiah 32:38 says this, "They shall be my people.

I will be their God. I will give them one heart and one way that they may fear me forever for their own good and for the good of their children after them. I will make with them an everlasting covenant that I will not turn away from doing good to them. and I will put the fear of me in their hearts that they may not turn from me. >> I thought, whoa.

Like, this is a good thing. >> Like, >> he goes, "This is what I'm going to do one day." You know, he's telling Jeremiah, "I'm going to put the fear of me in their hearts so then they can't turn away from me. >> It'll be for their good and the good of their children." >> So, there's a fear that's good. >> Yeah.

Yeah. >> And when I read that, I go, "That's it." Even when I wasn't I'm very grateful that I have a fear of God. Yeah. >> I think people who have heard me teach for the last 30 years know this guy has a fear of God. >> Um >> and now I'm realizing that's what's kept me from ever straying. >> Cuz even when I'm not feeling it, I still know who he is >> and that's in my heart.

Mh. >> And like I said, I I I think right now he just gave me that breath. That could be my last breath. >> Mhm. >> And then I'm going to see him like this is the way I live my life and I've done that for 30ome years.

And I go, "Oh, it's because he put the fear of God in my heart >> for my good." Yeah. >> So I can't turn from him. That doesn't mean I don't sin, >> but I can't stay in it. there's this fear that's at the core of me and you can't teach that to someone. >> Sure. >> God puts that, he puts it in your heart just like he puts the love in your heart.

And when you can marry those two things, when you can come before God, and this is what I pray, I go, God, every day, can I can you just remind me that you're holy and you love me? Can that just center who I am? Because if I wake up every day and go, there's a holy God up there and he is crazy about me.

Those two truths, if that's deep in my heart, >> yeah, >> I'm good. >> That's strong. >> Anything can happen and I'm okay because the fear of God and the love of God are in my heart. And that is something he has to do. So in church, you know, churches are often like behavior modification.

Don't do this anymore. Don't do that. You know, the whatever we're trying to talk people into it, but when the miracle happens inside of you, you can't leave him. You know, >> that's good. Sorry, I'm over here. >> Oh, no, no, no. That's >> choking on the love of God. >> That's good.

But that's that's what we want for everyone. >> Yeah. >> And only God can do that. >> Um it's funny cuz now I'm just backtracking and thinking like your perspective now >> refreshing. >> Beautiful. I remember us being in Atlanta. >> Golly, maybe I don't know. I don't even know how long ago it was.

Had to be. It's at least 10 years. At least 10 >> easily. Yeah. >> And um where we're at a conference and I mean, you know, people are singing and cheering. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And um I remember you saying this is great. this is awesome, but there are billions of people out there who are not in here singing and cheering. >> And uh I felt like you you helped me in that moment.

One to see bigger. >> Yeah. >> To see like beyond just this you it was kind of like >> I think I was living in this like Christian bubble of just like oh yeah this is it. this this is heaven on earth. We're here. >> And it was like, >> but I knew I wanted to see beyond that.

And in that moment, it was like helpful. It was almost like I felt I was wrestling with it a little bit, but then I felt like, yes, it it's more. I didn't know how to put my finger on it. >> Yeah. >> Um and I saw beyond that in that moment.

And I'm just curious like I guess in that time period you helped me to feel like oh wait we don't have this figured out and I was okay with not having it figured out like I don't have this figured out. >> And I'm just curious now >> like in hindsight this this kind of new perspective.

It's like >> what do you say to >> you then? Do you say like oh I don't have it all? >> I don't know. I yeah, you know, just like I said, it's interesting how I feel like sanctification, my holiness has grown because I know the love of God.

M >> um my desire to do ministry, love on people, get the word out is greater now. >> Um after knowing the love, now I'm starting to understand, wow, the love of Christ compels me. I'm just yesterday I was praying to God. I go, God, I really want to do something.

But it's not guilt or to prove anything or I have to do something. It's just like, God, I love when feel like it's you and me >> and we're doing something and it's in conjunction with each other. And so, whatever. If it's painful, it's painful, but it's with you.

It's It's different. >> Yeah. >> I I don't know how to explain it, but so I I made my kids watch this movie I saw on the plane a couple months ago. Have you watched uh One Life? I don't know if >> Anthony Hopkins, old guy just Well, he's an old guy, but it you got to watch it.

I've seen it. Yeah. But, you know, he's like rescuing these kids. He's during Nazi Germany. Okay. >> You know, Czechoslovakia trying to get the people in England to adopt him just but he's just this old man looking back and it's a I don't want to ruin it's >> I was going to say now you're going to ruin it for me. >> No, no, no.

The ending is >> I like Anthony Hopkins. Check it out. >> Oh, yeah. It was powerful. Only movie I've ever cried at. of the Christ. Yes. I was on the plane go, you know, but then afterwards I'm just pumped like God, yes, that's what I want to do with my life.

I It It was just motivating, you know. So, it's not like, oh, that was Francis the Radical back then, >> and now that he's found the love of Christ, he just sits on a mountain and enjoys him. You know, it's it's No, it's just different. Like, I enjoy being used by him.

Yeah. >> More than ever. I enjoy God more than ever. Um >> and it's knowing that I'm loved by him. >> It's It's the best. And now it's, you know, you realize, well, why are people not so attracted to the church? It's like, wow. Because it's filled with a lot of insecurity. >> Mhm. >> And you're not you're not seeing a lot of love. >> Mhm. >> Um but maybe this lack of love one another is because we don't really know that we're loved by him. >> Yeah.

And even you look on the internet, you know, whoever's most popular, whatever, you know, Christian shows or all these like different I'm the only one that has a truth type of channels and and you go, gosh, do they seem like they're just basking in the love of Christ and they're saying these things because they so love all these people.

Um, but I think that can change. Uh, I think God is changing that. I think there's a new generation that is wanting just to know deeply that they're loved by God. >> Yeah. >> They want that fear of God in their hearts and they want that love of Christ deep in their hearts and to where they don't have to be coerced into doing things.

Mhm. >> But it's like I don't know what else that that verse the the love of Christ compels me in the I think it's called the English Standard Bible says the love of Christ leaves me no choice. like I'm so loved by him >> that it's like it's just the natural thing to do is go tell everyone.

It's not a guilt thing, a force thing. Um, so yeah, it's so it's been the best season of my life. >> When you hear the verse when you know in a scripture where they'll know us by our love, >> does it mean does it hit different? >> Oh, yeah.

Yeah. It's it's it's just no it's no longer a job to me. And it's almost like I have different eyes. Like if we did this interview 10 years ago, just like I would just be talking talking but not feeling anything for you. M >> so like when you talked about that period you went through in 2015 or whatever 2018 I'm just like and I'm picturing God right now just loving you and wanting you to know that you're loved by him. >> Like I seriously I I mean I don't mean that just cuz we're on a podcast. like I feel for you.

I care about you. And I don't know that that it's not like I disliked you, you know, before. It's just >> it wasn't really love. >> Um >> I liked you. I'm glad we're on the same team. I'm glad we got to do these events together. I'm glad, you know, it was fun.

It was good. But it would have been a stretch to say that I genuinely loved you. >> Mhm. >> I would have said it just because it's the right thing to say, but >> I don't even know if God loved you. So I >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. It just it's it's different now. >> Yeah. >> Like I care about I care less who's watching this or whatever. from thinking about your soul and go, "No, I seriously want you just so secure and waking up in the morning like just fired up like I can't believe you love me.

This is the best." Like I want you to wake up like that. I want you to go to bed tonight and you're laying there. I don't know if you ever, you know, when your kids were young, you would just look at them while they're sleeping. And I want you to believe like, gosh, if that's what I felt with my kids, it's God looking at me right now in my bed. >> That's perspective. >> It's beyond that.

Like, I want that for you because that would change every That's a That's a game changer. That's lifechanging. >> Yeah. And I want that for everyone listening like for and the enemy is going to do everything he can to get in your head. No, he doesn't love you.

He loves Francis because you know because of this or that. He didn't screw up like this or it's like no, no, no, no, no, no. You got to >> and this is something I I told uh our elders one day because someone was writing some nasty things about us that we knew were not true.

Mhm. >> And I go, "You guys have to remember that you didn't just give your body over to Christ when you became believer. You gave him your mind." So this mind belongs to Jesus. >> Your mind, you're not free to just dwell on whatever you want to dwell on. >> So these lies that people wrote about you, you don't have the freedom to meditate on that.

M >> not with the mind of Christ. And it was a new revelation to me like we're not allowed to dwell on that. >> He commanded me whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, excellent, praise, let your mind dwell on these things. And it's like, oh, that's right.

This doesn't belong to me. So I'm not allowed to think about even my own sins or whatever or you know I'm that's not praiseworthy. That's not excellent. >> That is that is the social media sound bite of the century. Everyone needs to know that. >> Yes. I'm not like to replay those things that my dad said to me.

I this this mind doesn't belong to me. And God says, "I got to fill up with these things." So when the enemy gets in your head, that's what it means to take the thoughts captive, the doubts, when you the moment you start going, I'm not sure if he thought Wait a second.

Wait a second. >> Mhm. >> I can't dwell on that. >> Mhm. >> He is love. He is abounding in steadfast love. As as high as the heavens are above the earth, so great is his steadfast love toward those who fear him. I know I fear him. So, he has this abounding steadfast love on me.

I'm going to dwell on that. >> Yeah. >> I'm going to meditate on that. >> Yeah. >> Because this is his mind. >> I was bought with a price. >> That means my body is his and my mind is his. So, I'm going to dwell on his love for me.

I'm going to meditate on it. And for guys like me and probably for you, >> I it's hard to just meditate on his love >> because I want to fix something. I want to accomplish something. What is meditating on his love going to do? And yet he commands me to do that. >> Yeah. >> And it's like >> I would have never done it had I not been mentally disabled. >> Yeah. >> I would have never like I needed to know he loved me cuz I couldn't fix anything.

I couldn't fix myself. So, and now even in a healthier state, I'm like, >> even even as we're having this conversation, I'm thinking, >> okay, Lord, I think sometimes you keep me at a place where I'm dependent upon you so that I will >> reflect on your love >> for me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah.

I could we could talk about this for two more hours. >> We But this is the only thing worth talking about anymore. like to think right now you and I what God wants us to believe and to know is he's in heaven >> yet somehow he's right here. >> Mhm. >> You know that that hits me that Revelation 3 when he goes I'm knocking at the door. >> I want to eat with you guys. >> Yeah. >> I don't want you guys doing a podcast about me without like recognizing I'm right here with you guys.

You're my boys. I love you so much. You're beloved. You're the disciples that I love. You're my children that I love. And for us to sit here like, that's the greatest truth in the world. That is the best news in the world. I don't really care about anything else right now.

Say that to me again, God. Oh, I love you. Love you, Lra. Love you, Francis. You're mine. You're my children. I'm going to go prepare a place for you. I got you. I love you. No, you don't even know how what you think you love your kids. That's that's cute compared to what I feel about you.

Cuz you two believe that my son died for you. You actually want him to be the king of this earth. >> You actually want and love his commands. You know what? And I love you guys. And all right. Now, let me go to bed thinking that same thing.

Let me wake up thinking that same thing. >> Let me just go through life like that. >> That's great. I I I'm genuinely smiling. I'm genuinely >> grateful. >> Um and I'm challenged to like meditate >> Yeah. on his love. >> Yeah. >> So, um I I can't thank you enough.

I like >> all the questions I had are pretty much out the window cuz I'm like, "No, this is what the Lord wanted us to discuss." And I and I we prayed that before we started and I'm like grateful. Um, is there anything before we go like that you need people to know or >> I I think I I think it's uh identity. >> It's like really think about I remember my youth pastor told us one day, write down, this is when I was in high school, what you'd want written on your tombstone, like what you want to be remembered for.

And all through life it would have been something different. And now it's like I'm finally at the point where it's like I want to be known as the beloved. Not for anything I've done, but for everything he's done. >> I just want to be secure. I want everyone to know that Francis Chan was an absolute loser.

That my college years were a wreck. My start in ministry was disaster, hypocritical, sinful. I mean, at 22, 23 years old, I was like, it's over. And God poured his grace on me. And that's the only reason anything good has come out of my life. And I'm loved by him.

I don't want to be known as the fear of God guy or the house church guy or the communion guy or the great speaker or this that. I really want to be I want everyone to know I am loved by God and I want to be his that's all I want to be known as is beloved.

And and it it hit me that when God introduced Jesus to the world at his baptism, what did he say? >> This is my son. >> Wow. >> This is my son whom I love. >> That's good. Yeah. >> In him I find. What did he say at the transfiguration?

Voice from the cloud. This is my son whom I love. >> That's good enough for Jesus. And so I'm sure it was fun. Oh, the Cray. He's the one that won the Grammy. He's the one that did this. This this this. He's the one that did exactly compared to being loved by God. >> Mhm. >> Now I'm starting to understand what the Apostle Paul was saying.

That's all that's rubbish. >> Yeah. >> Compared to surpassing value knowing it. >> It's really good. Yeah. I want to reiterate something that >> you said just for those listening that this is it's a supernatural occurrence. Yes. >> Cuz even I had to tell myself I was like >> I'm going to go home and I'm going to meditate on the love of God and I was like no >> I'm going to pray and ask God to fill me. >> Yes. >> And I'm going to continue >> Yes. >> trying to meditate on his love as I'm asking for him to do that work in my own heart.

Yes. So, >> Amen. >> Yes. >> Awesome. >> Brother Francis, I appreciate you. >> Oh, this was good. So good. I'm glad it came out. >> Me, too. Thank you, man. This is the deep end with LCRA.